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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84201: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:37:27 PM

I think she actually did adopt a cat in the Black Widow comic that focused hard on the red ledger stuff.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84202: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:40:23 PM

The conversation was also happening in Hawkeye and his family's house, and the point of the scene was that they were talking about running away together and quitting the Avengers. It's not "women are mothers", it's "look at how great having a family is".

edited 6th Apr '18 10:41:07 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

unexplainedEnemy from hell pit Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#84203: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:40:34 PM

No question, Winter Soldier is, so far, the best movie for Natasha having character development and an actual arc. With Joss Whedon, as with pretty much every time he's written the Avengers, she's more of a cliche detached from any compelling personality, only she also very much comes across as "the one girl, so she has to be sexy/want kids/be sad about not having kids", which...doesn't help.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:42:20 PM by unexplainedEnemy

they're gonna find intelligent life up there on the moon/and the canterbury tales will shoot up to the top of the best-seller list
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84204: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:41:13 PM

I think she actually did adopt a cat in the Black Widow comic that focused hard on the red ledger stuff.

She did. I liked the first volume of that series (second had some questionable racism :/). It would make a decent movie for Widow of her traveling the world, taking missions for cash to repay her old sins.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:41:47 PM by Tuckerscreator

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84205: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:42:08 PM

[up][up][up] That doesn’t change my analysis in anyway. The scene is still written as it is, and the dialogue still terrible.

[up] [up]She also gets a pretty good arc in Civil War, if I remember correctly. So the Russo brothers have so far done the best job for her.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:42:36 PM by wisewillow

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84206: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:43:03 PM

The Russo bros truly are beautiful people.

My hearts out to them in the magnanimous difficultly it will take working on Infinity War. [tup]

[up] Now let's see what they'll do in ending the relationship.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:43:55 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84207: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:44:46 PM

Quoting the script misses the nuance in the acting. The whole line is clearly about having a family, what with the heavy emphasis on the word "efficient", combined with that being the context behind the scene as a whole.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#84208: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:46:31 PM

There's no fucking nuance in there. It's sexist garbage is what it is. And frankly, trying to explain it away to someone who felt offended by it because of personal reasons feels kind of mansplain-y?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84209: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:47:23 PM

[up][up]I just finished watching the movie. The context begins about children, but she literally says that being sterile makes killing easier. The acting doesn’t add any nuance; Ruffalo and Scar Jo are pretty wooden in their shared scenes. Also, someone pointed out that all the women in the film are associated with childbirth. Wanda helps birth Ultron, Cho helps birth his new body, Hawkeye‘s wife is pregnant, and then we have Natasha.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:48:15 PM by wisewillow

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84210: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:48:35 PM

Holy crap this is literally Metroid: Other M! surprised

Now that is surprising & somewhat amusing in a black comedy sense.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:49:23 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84212: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:49:13 PM

Quoting the script misses the nuance in the acting. The whole line is clearly about having a family, what with the heavy emphasis on the word "efficient", combined with that being the context behind the scene as a whole.

The overall context for the scene (that it's part of Banner's ongoing character arc in which he has to accept he's going to be a monster, and Widow's attempts to romance him) rather overshadows the immediate context (that it's going on inside someone's family house), which in comparison is rather superficial. This is especially evident because very little about the scenes draws attention to the latter, in favor of building the former.

It doesn't help that the full context of this scene is, also, an array of scenes within the Barton home where the characters can't get past their own arcs and get settled in the happy surroundings. Widow isn't lamenting her apparent monstrosity because of the comparison to Clint's family, she's doing so in spite of it.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:50:21 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84213: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:49:46 PM

She implicitly says that not having people you love makes killing easier. Just, try to see it from my perspective, and I'll try to see it from yours. Deal?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84214: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:51:23 PM

She implicitly says that not having people you love makes killing easier.

Keep in mind that this scene is one of several that's there to set up Banner and Widow trying to have a (failed) romantic relationship. Thus the "love" connection will, in that context, pretty much always be taken romantically.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:51:47 PM by KnownUnknown

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84215: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:51:32 PM

[up][up]No. The line is literally that being sterile makes killing easier. That a baby is the “one” thing that might matter more than a mission. It might not have been deliberately sexist in intent (most writing isn’t), but it is spectacularly sexist in execution.

They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. It makes everything easier. Even killing. [she hesitates a moment] You still think you're the only monster on the team?

There is nothing about romantic love in the line. The line is about babies.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:53:08 PM by wisewillow

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#84216: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:52:32 PM

Said relationship by the way is one of the most disgusting parts of the movie and drags it down considerably for me. It comes out of nowhere. Banner and Nat in the first Avengers didn't have anything resembling romance together and their relationship's extent was him almost killing her as the Hulk.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84217: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:52:39 PM

Okay before this gets anymore tense than it already is I immediately implore & advise everyone to calm down.

Lets keep this civil & chill.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:52:49 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84218: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:53:32 PM

Saying Wanda births Ultron and Cho helps birth his latest body is a bit shaky logic.

But it does remind me that Vision has four dads. Tony, Bruce, Thor, Ultron

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#84219: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:54:03 PM

Honestly, my main issue with the scene is that TIH established that Banner can't have sex because he would hulk out. So just because Natasha has been sterilized (and I wouldn't have gone for this particular plot point either, especially not as a side plot), she doesn't have the right for hot, fulfilling sex?

Also, Bruce is nearly old enough to be her father and nearly killed her just one movie earlier. I still think that one of the male Avengers should have gotten the job of calming the Hulk down. It feels like Natasha only got it because she is the only woman around.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84220: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:55:23 PM

I tried extending an olive branch. I do agree that this debate has happened too often before. A common problem on this site; debates resurrecting themselves over and over again. How about we talk about how excited we are for Captain Marvel?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84221: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:55:57 PM

[up][up] I agree. The age difference is gross and I hated that they went with a beauty calms the beast angle. The lullaby is stupid. Also, Nat gets damseled in the third act for no good reason. She can’t break out of a basic cell??? Bruce has to break her out??? What????

[up] No, you did not, you essentially told me my analysis was wrong, then condescended about how I needed to try to see your point of view. However, let’s move on.

Guardians has a fantastic score. Not just the oldies, but the orchestral score is really great. I teared up when Peter nearly died for Gamora in space, and when Groot lit up the dark spaceship, and when Groot sacrificed himself.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:59:01 PM by wisewillow

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#84222: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:56:58 PM

Captain Marvel seems like it'll be a fun time. I honestly can't wait.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#84223: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:57:11 PM

Captain Marvel's cinematographer is the same fella who did the shitty cinematography for Age of Ultron and Doctor Strange, my expectations have gone down.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#84224: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:57:40 PM

Oh shit, really? That's frustrating.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84225: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:57:41 PM

The MCU is only use TIH in broad strokes anyway.

Also as Thor Ragnarok proved, Thor should have been on calming duty.

Here's the proof: him and Thor are both like fire, Thor can survive being smacked if the calming doesn't work, they have so much in common and can get into friendly conversations

And I'm super hype for Captain Marvel. Read a Ms Marvel trade today and could only think 'wow most writers just don't know what to do with Carol'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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