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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84176: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:22:34 PM

[up] Alright then he's a complete wimp or a scrub.

They spent too much time trying to humanize him that he ended up being well neutered of his menace level.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84177: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:22:51 PM

PMC... you’re being sarcastic right? Please, please say you’re being sarcastic.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84178: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:23:01 PM

Whedon is a self-proclaimed feminist, and all of the depth to her character comes from those films. From "red in her ledger" to the "Red Room" scenes, Natasha was built in the Avengers films. I remember almost nothing about her in either Captain America film, aside from her and Steve fake-kissing and her stopping T'Challa.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84179: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:23:18 PM

Every time I watch Age of Ultron, I see more tiny but significant flaws, more subtly baffling decisions that make less sense the more I think about them.

Why does the "fun opening battle" have such washed out gray coloring?

Why does Quicksilver not use any weapons fighting the Avengers? He'd be invincible.

Why does the first half of the plot hinge of Ultron being stronger than Jarvis, then Jarvis suddenly turning out to be stronger than Ultron?

Why does the film keep claiming there's an ideological conflict about "do the Avengers aid the world rather than stagnate it" but their victory at the end comes from a deus ex machina by SHIELD?

Why does Ultron's plan to defeat the Avengers boil down to "give them one day of really bad self-esteem"? Then why at the end is he glad to fight them all together after all?

Why does Ultron want a flesh body? Why does he tell Nat she "wounded him" by stealing it and so he'll be crueler, when he was already planning on killing everyone on Earth?

Did the Avengers seriously find Ultron in South Africa by picking a random paper file?

Why did Fury ditch the shades. Why does Ultron have telekinesis. How come his lasers never hurt anybody, even with direct hits to the chest. Why anything. Why everything.

Lulla-why.

edited 7th Apr '18 1:16:15 AM by Tuckerscreator

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84180: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:24:18 PM

Uh I think she got more character development in Winter Soldier & Civil War.

At least WS had her dealing with the fact being a spy keeping is not good for you.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84181: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:06 PM

I don't think Ultron can be too humanized. He's a giant mass of hyperbolic emotions that just wants his daddy to love him or to kill his daddy and marry his mom.

His greatest atrocities are always right adjacent to him trying to make a family for himself.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84182: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:06 PM

I forgot that she also leaked all of SHIELD's files to the public. That was really dumb.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84183: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:06 PM

PMC, would you please clarify whether you’re serious or sarcastic here? I honestly can’t tell.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#84184: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:11 PM

Whedon is not a feminist. Whedon's brand of "feminism" is at best him getting off to his fetishes and at worst outright retrograde. The man hasn't been considered feminist in decades and frankly I find it kind of weird to hail a male writer as a bastion of feminism when there's numerous female writers who can beat him in that department?

Also he cheated on his wife by abusing his feminist cred so fuck him.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84185: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:30 PM

It's a little something called "subversion of expectations", Hawkeye dying would've been predictable.

Which is often a really bad idea in a film if you're not good at setting it up, for reasons very well illustrated in Ultron: it spend a large portion of time giving us cheeky death flags for Hawkeye and giving us what seem to be the start of character depth, but are actually superficial details for the sake of making those death flags. Meanwhile, the development for Hawkeye himself doesn't really go anywhere and outright stops after the scene where Quicksilver dies: there's no real interest in giving him a full denouement, because the only reason we were even getting that content for him was for the sake of the "gotcha."

Hawkeye doesn't have any development. He doesn't move from one place to another. We learn he has a family, but the movie doesn't do anything with it. He just seems to be about to die, and then doesn't. Conversely, Quicksilver barely gets any character development at all. He's just there to be the surprise person who dies instead.

Which all adds up to all that time setting up the "gotcha" being wasted airtime, because it doesn't actually lead to anything: if Hawkeye wasn't going to die, it would've been better to just not bother with the death hints and give those moments to Quicksilver instead. It just leads to a quick 'ha" from people who get the joke you're trying like mad to sell, confusion from people who don't, and a far more underwhelming experience from both groups upon rewatch.

Gotchas only work if, even if they subvert expectations, they still add layers to the things that came before them. This is why "surprise villains" (as much as people seem to be tiring of them) are the variety that work the best: because that twist changes the way the earlier scenes look to the viewer. If you're just doing a gotcha for the sake of a gotcha (and there's a lot of "lol, genre savvy" stuff in Ultron without much substance in general) let alone actually making it plot important, it's probably better to just write something stronger.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:31:04 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84186: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:26:32 PM

If Whedon were actually a good feminist, he wouldn't have cheated on his wife, and he would've had more women superheroes in this film who actually talk to each other. Gimme Rescue Pepper and Sif and Sharon Carter and don't try for only a single shot for Captain Marvel.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:27:13 PM by Tuckerscreator

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84187: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:28:32 PM

Huh then okay the problem wasn't that Ultron was too humanized, its that he was too weak.

I mean compare him here to his portrayal to Earth's Mightiest Heroes where he can single-handily take on all the Avengers repeatedly.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#84188: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:30:01 PM

I'd argue that Ultron wasn't very humanized at all. He was sarcastic, and that was about it. He didn't really have a coherent personality beyond "I want to kill everything: I'm not really going to think about why, and I'd like you all not to either."

edited 6th Apr '18 10:30:22 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84189: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:30:07 PM

I'm being serious. I really don't get all this backlash against Age of Ultron when it's better than the first Avengers, and both are incredible action block-busters. Seriously, tell me what was so great about Black Widow in the Captain America films, because I don't see it.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84190: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:31:00 PM

Ultron's menace would've upped considerably if they had emphasized the deadliness of insta-perfect-aim AI. Then the Avengers would actually have a good reason for building an AI of their own.

I can see the appeal of making Ultron more messed up than logical, but I think I would've preferred in a way where he doesn't make much sense when he speaks and so is scary from incomprehensibility. Kinda like talking to Cleverbot, maybe. His first scene rambling about dreams and strings is the closest to that.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:31:29 PM by Tuckerscreator

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#84191: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:31:01 PM

Before we continue this conversation, I'd like to remind everyone not to shit on someone just because they like a movie that other people dislike.

Oh God! Natural light!
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#84192: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:31:15 PM

[up][up][up] It just sounded like if you were being possessed by that Whedon ultra fan-boy...

Don't get me wrong, I still like Age of Ultron.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:31:45 PM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84193: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:32:01 PM

I think logical A.I.s are a dime a dozen and I would have like them to play up the pissbaby aspects from the comic version a little more.

He's a giant screeching toddler that also is made of guns. Run with that.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84194: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:32:23 PM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I was legitimately struggling to tell if PMC was being serious or not. Apparently they are.

Also Age of Ultron is a stupid title when the events of the film last only for a couple of weeks. And the Bruce and Natasha relationship is even worse than I remembered; almost every single character makes multiple stupid references to it, their interactions are gross or wooden, and the conversation at Hawkeye’s house is even worse than I remembered.

Natasha Romanoff: You're not a threat to me.

Bruce Banner: You sure? Even if I didn't just...there's no future with me. I can't ever...I can't have this, kids, do the math, I physically can't.

Natasha Romanoff: Neither can I. In the Red Room, where I was trained, where I was raised, um, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It's efficient. One less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. It makes everything easier. Even killing. [she hesitates a moment] You still think you're the only monster on the team?

Okay. SO. Apparently only bearing children could possibly matter more than a mission. Which ignores the wealth of human emotion and the human experience in favor of stupid motherhood is the most meaningful thing ever for any woman stereotypes.

ALSO, how the hell does being sterile make killing easier?! How?? I’m sterile; it took me 6 months to properly spar in martial arts instead of just dodging and running away from my opponents because I didn’t want to spar-punch my friends. It’s an insulting, idiotic scene.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:34:32 PM by wisewillow

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84195: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:33:44 PM

"Hahahah now that we've sterilized our agents nothing will stop them from being flawless killing machines"
"She just adopted a cat."
"Dammit!"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#84196: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:34:13 PM

In my opinion the depth of development Natasha receives goes like this:

Winter Soldier >>> Age of Ultron >= Civil War = Avengers > Iron Man 2

She had stuff to do in Age of Ultron but it wasn't anything I considered particularly interesting character development. In Winter Soldier she had a clear, nuanced, and well fleshed-out arc regarding her trust and loyalty issues.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:34:45 PM by AlleyOop

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#84197: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:34:28 PM

At least the fight scenes in the Avengers progressed the plot foreword to some extent.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84198: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:35:18 PM

[up][up][up][up]The point was "only a family could mean more than a mission" and "children might force her to grow sympathy for another human being". It absolutely wasn't a shot at women who are sterile.

edited 6th Apr '18 10:35:52 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#84199: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:35:25 PM

If Natasha was sterilized, how does she only have scars from the Winter Soldier on her abdomen. Why aren't there scars from the surgery. I have more questions.

"She just adopted a cat."

evil grinevil grinevil grin

edited 6th Apr '18 10:36:03 PM by Tuckerscreator

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#84200: Apr 6th 2018 at 10:37:19 PM

[up][up] Only a family (baby, not husband) could matter more than a mission is still a huge crappy “women are mothers and that is their highest purpose” stereotype.

The line is literally that being sterile makes killing easier. I’m taking that as crappy writing regardless of whether it was meant to be rude.


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