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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83776: Mar 30th 2018 at 5:36:26 PM

Ang Lee Hulk has some great ideas, but it falls on its face on every single one of them and is thoroughly boring to boot. Incredible Hulk inspires to do much less, but it follows through on what it wants to. The fight scenes are great and the villain actually has a character arc, which is much more than the utter snoozefest of Ang Lee's Hulk. The only good thing about that film is the musical score, which doesn't even fit a Hulk movie.

I've not seen the Ang Lee movie in a while so I can't comment, but I'd heavily disagree that the 08 Hulk follows through on anything when what it wants to do is to not try at all. The fight scenes are usually shot in night scenes so they're murkier and harder to understand. And yeah, Blonsky has an arc. Thing is, nobody else does. Nobody else has character. Norton as Banner is bleh, Liv Tyler as Betty is usually just mopey and cries all the time, and there is no proper set up for the characters at all. In Iron Man, Thor, and Cap, we all get set up for the main characters somehow, we're established who they are by showing and not telling. Banner doesn't get that in his own movie.

I just forgot about it! Which sort of says it all. I'd put it above The Incredible Hulk, but that's about it. It was So Okay, It's Average incarnate. Nothing terribly offensive about it, but nothing terribly interesting either. We didn't really learn anything interesting about Asgard or any of the characters, Thor's character arc was virtually nonexistent (even though the entire plot of the movie theoretically revolved around the idea of Thor becoming worthy to wield Mjolnir), and none of the action was particularly exciting.

I'd honestly put it above First Avenger, Iron Man 2, and The Incredible Hulk. Loki at least is fairly interesting in this (and frankly I find his depiction here better than in The Avengers), and I love the Shakespeare influence. As for Thor's arc, the most I can say bad about it is that it's a bit too rushed. It's not really bad though. The film is just kinda goofy and dumb but the fun kind of dumb for me.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83777: Mar 30th 2018 at 5:39:34 PM

[up][up][up][up]Oh yes.

[up]Yeah, they're two different types of movies entirely. Ang Lee was very obviously trying to make a serious, artsy movie aimed at a more sophisticated, adult audience, and consequently badly misjudged the type of people who would actually go see a Hulk movie. He thought that would set it apart from the other popular superhero franchises of the time like Spider-Man and X-Men, which while also having fairly serious subject matter, still skewed far younger for the most part.

When that backfired spectacularly, they went in the complete opposite direction with The Incredible Hulk and tried to make a big, dumb 80s-style action movie that wasn't particularly innovative or lofty, but was enjoyable for what it was.

Actually, it's not too different from what we recently saw happen with the new direction made for Justice League after Batman v. Superman was panned and underperformed.

edited 30th Mar '18 5:43:57 PM by comicwriter

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#83778: Mar 30th 2018 at 6:16:18 PM

Loki's problem (in both Thor and Avengers) is that the writers can't seem to decide what to do with him. Is he a tragic figure of a once-noble person brought low by his inability to escape his own demons? Is he a dangerous megalomaniac wearing a thin veneer of sanity? Is he an ambitious trickster, using charm and guile to achieve what he can't by force alone?

They can't seem to make up their mind. The first half of Thor depicts Loki as a reasonable (if somewhat underhanded) guy who genuinely cares for his family and for Asgard. Then he discovers his true parentage and this turns him evil for some reason? He decides that he's going to kill all the frost giants, destroy their world, and become king of Asgard (but killing Odin never actually enters into it?). Killing Thor totally enters into it, though, even though Thor is safely out of the way on Earth and no threat to him. Because learning he's a frost giant has shifted his attitude from "I love my brother but he'd make a terrible king" to "fuck that guy, I hate his stupid face" even though Thor had nothing to do with any of this. By The Avengers, he's just a generic villain who wants to rule the world because that's what generic villains want to do.

Meanwhile, Thor goes from being a hot-headed but well-meaning idiot who is unworthy of Mjolnir, to a hot-headed but well-meaning idiot who is worthy of Mjolnir. In the beginning of the film, he wants to fight the frost giants, but only because he genuinely (if unwisely) believes that they're a threat. It would have been much better for his later development if he'd only wanted to fight them because GLORIOUS COMBAT AGAINST A WORTHY FOE, who needs reasons to kill people? Later on in The Avengers, he fights Iron Man (who fights back), but then he attacks Cap just for trying to talk instead of fight, and only calms down when he smashes Cap's shield and the reflection of the blast levels a small forest around them. Would have been better if he'd tried to smash Cap and suddenly he can't lift Mjolnir, then he calms down and agrees to talk and he can pick it up again.

edited 30th Mar '18 6:17:10 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83779: Mar 30th 2018 at 6:36:07 PM

The first half of Thor depicts Loki as a reasonable (if somewhat underhanded) guy who genuinely cares for his family and for Asgard. Then he discovers his true parentage and this turns him evil for some reason?

The first half of Thor portrays him as opening the door for a band of plundering raiders who kill at least one innocent Asgardian in order to indirectly stick it to Thor, and then using the fallout from that situation to further manipulate Thor into getting himself punished by Odin so as to make himself look better in comparison. It was easy and Thor didn't take much prodding, sure, but that doesn't mean Loki didn't intentionally set it up or happily enjoy the consequences. Loki may not have wanted Thor to get banished, specifically (it's unclear, and we'll never know either way), but he did definitely have zero problem with Thor getting thrown under a bus.

The second half of Thor portrays his bigot tendencies towards Frost Giants - which is definitely there in the first half - as driving him to dangerous insecurity once he finds out he's one of them, and thus he decides to "impress" dear old dad by getting rid of the Frost Giants entirely - stopping the war Thor started and making everyone think he handled the situation well since everybody on Asgard hated Frost Giants anyway. His motivation of making himself look good to his father and being willing to stoop to horrible means in order to do so is consistent throughout.

He loses the "impress Odin" motivation after that movie, and Avengers Loki is a very different character from any version before or after: that megalomaniacal "conquer for the sake of spiting Thor, wants to free people from their own freedom" Loki never appears again. Blame Whedon for that, I guess.

Ever since then, he's been portrayed as a vain and selfish trickster willing to work with people to further his own ends and then inevitably screw over those people who have come to trust him in order to further further those ends - mostly in order to pursue a comfortable position of power, influence and safety. You could argue he's less nasty in Thor 2 and 3 than he was not just in Avengers, but even in Thor 1, since he's not quite as vindictive or spiteful now and is portrayed as more ruthlessly pragmatic.

edited 30th Mar '18 6:44:28 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#83781: Mar 30th 2018 at 8:09:30 PM

My opinion on Thor: It was two really interesting movies carved up and stitched together into one mediocre movie.

I could have taken a film about the complexities of Asgardian politics, what it means to be a king, and a treacherous and jealous half-brother scheming for the throne. When you get right down to it, Black Panther was the Thor we deserved.

I could also have taken a film about a powerful god of myth and legend being brought down to mortal and having to learn to cope with what it means to be human, discovering new things about himself in the process.

Thor tried to be both and wound up doing justice to neither. Pretty much the same problem that Ragnarok would have later down the line.

edited 30th Mar '18 8:16:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83782: Mar 30th 2018 at 8:14:04 PM

Mediocre? I wouldn't call the first Thor anything spectacular but mediocre isn't accurate. It's fun. Dumb, doofy, silly, and fun. Now The Dark World, on the other hand...well we're rewatching it right now as I'm posting this and good god it's boring.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#83783: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:13:16 PM

The first half of Thor portrays him as opening the door for a band of plundering raiders who kill at least one innocent Asgardian in order to indirectly stick it to Thor, and then using the fallout from that situation to further manipulate Thor into getting himself punished by Odin so as to make himself look better in comparison.
He claims that he does this in order to prevent Thor from becoming king (or heir, because Odin is king, or... whatever), because Thor would be a bad king, and the narrative presents him as being correct in this assessment (as we're supposed to believe that Thor needed to learn a Valuable Lesson on Earth before he's ready). It's not until he discovered he's a frost giant and confronts Odin about it that he goes full whacko. He tells Thor's pals that he expected Odin to change his mind about giving Thor the crown, but not to banish him. He does express the opinion that banishment might be the best thing for Thor, but so does Odin (and again, the narrative wants us to believe they're right).

The movie very much wants us to believe that Loki was a dutiful son and loving brother up until he discovers his true heritage, at which point he loses his goddamn mind.

My opinion on Thor: It was two really interesting movies carved up and stitched together into one mediocre movie.
I could see that. I'm not sure how well you could do a movie purely about Asgardian politics, but Guardians of the Galaxy had virtually no connection to Earth and that turned out okay, so it's certainly possible. I'm mostly leery about them actually doing Asgard decently, as what we see of it in Thor is a really indecisive mix between "mythological realm of the gods" and "advanced alien civilization". They have to decide what Asgard is before they can set an entire movie there.

It would have been interesting if they spent the whole movie on Thor being banished and learning to cope with being mortal, though. Have his entire life on Asgard wrapped up in using his godly strength to smash bad guys, then force him to deal with the idea of living life without godly strength. Mix in some threat for him to face while mortal (maybe the frost giants get wind of his banishment and decide to kill him while he's vulnerable?) and he can learn the true meaning of heroism, blah blah etc etc. Maybe have him start to prefer mortal life, to the point where he can lift the hammer again but decides not to, until the baddies show up and great power/great responsibility, etc.

If you did that you'd need a second movie to set up Loki going villain in order to set the stage for The Avengers, though.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:14:07 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83784: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:29:52 PM

Anyways, just rewatched Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World with some other tropers.

So, brief thoughts about both, since Draghinazzo wasn't there to give his thoughts: Iron Man 3 is one of the worst movies in the MCU. I tuned out partway through to watch an episode of Agents of SHIELD by the third act (by the way, Von Strucker and Sitwell were in Hydra private school together, that's canon now according to that show). It's been talked to death already but basically: the twist sucked, good ideas wasted to all hell, Killian is tied with Malekith as the worst MCU villain, and Tony's struggles with PTSD are just swept aside after a while. It's stupid. Absolutely stupid, I fucking hated it. The ending fight with the Iron Legion was boring CGI spectacle for spectacle's sake and so much of the plot is stupid and outright ableist as hell. Yeah, sure, use the evil cripple trope by having a bunch of disabled army vets as the villains, that'll go well. Iron Man 2 is better than this, at least it's plot wasn't basically saying "Hey what if Osama Bin Laden was an inside job?" and its palette wasn't so goddamn brown. Also I hate that kid in there so much.

As for Thor: The Dark World, I also hated it but not with the same intensity. It's just so goddamn boring. I zoned out so much while watching this that I considered leaving and going to sleep. Same old criticisms still stand (boring villain, annoying human stuff, Frigga's death, etc.) but if I may talk about the issue with the humans: at least in the first Thor they worked. At least Jane did some shit and had a little bit of character. At least Darcy's jokes were kept to a minimum and they landed. And god damn it Selvig, they turn him into a stupid joke after Loki mind controlled him. But here? Hello stupid English boyfriend who contributes nothing, hello comedy relief with her own comedy relief, and hello shitty as fuck gray color that permeates the entire movie. Loki is decent I guess but his scenes don't save the movie. Overall it's just dull dull dull.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#83785: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:36:16 PM

At least Jane did some shit and had a little bit of character.
In the first Thor movie? Character I'll give you (she's the stubborn and single-minded scientist who's spent her life on her research to the exclusion of all else) but her contribution to the plot was absolutely zero. She drives Thor around and watches him do stuff. That's literally her entire role. She doesn't even get to user her theoretical wormhole knowledge to help Thor get back to Asgard or something. You could completely remove her from the movie and it wouldn't change a damn thing.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83786: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:40:08 PM

That's a hyperbolic claim that removing her wouldn't change anything in the movie (really there's a stronger case with Darcy or Selvig) but she at least is something in the first movie. In The Dark World she's a plot device to store the Macguffin.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#83787: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:43:45 PM

[up] So, could she return one day?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83788: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:48:09 PM

I'd much rather Valkyrie get a movie.

Thor is presumably going to be busy kinging. And Mjolnir broke. No passing off the thunder here.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83789: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:48:19 PM

Probably not. Portman does seem more open to it but I don't know why Marvel would bother.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83790: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:48:38 PM

Doubtful. Last we heard it didn't sound like Natalie Portman is much interested in returning, and it's not likely that Marvel Studios would deem Jane an important enough character to recast.

That's why I'm semi-seriously, mostly jokingly pulling for Darcy as the MCU's Lady Thor. evil grin. At least Kat Dennings has said she was willing to keep playing the character.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:49:11 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83791: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:49:49 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83792: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:49:49 PM

Marvel is fairly dedicated to making people forget about the Thor side characters from the first two movies, so no. I'd be much sooner up for Valkyrie and/or Korg getting their own movie (but if Korg gets something just keep him to the side, I can't imagine him leading his own movie).

[up]

Oh thank god, I hate Matt Damon with a burning passion.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:50:33 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#83793: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:50:50 PM

[up] And what about a Valkyrie VS Hercules movie?

Also, something wrong with Matt for you?

edited 30th Mar '18 9:51:17 PM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83794: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:52:33 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83795: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:53:03 PM

[up][up] It's interesting: though Matt Damon passed on it, this does confirm that Marvel is actively looking now, and that Matt Damon is at least approximately the kind of actor they're looking for to play whoever it was going to be.

When I saw it earlier, a few friends and I did some brainstorming as to which characters might've been most likely to be associated with a Matt Damon type, and with the place/period of his career Spidey is going to be in with the next MCU movie (rather than necessarily what we wanted). I came up with Chameleon and Alistair Smythe - <shrug>.

I almost feel like it makes Mysterio less likely, because Mysterio's all about not being seen, nor being personally proactive. It would've been a bit against type for Matt Damon, whose face is always front and center and is good at playing "doers."

edited 30th Mar '18 9:56:05 PM by KnownUnknown

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83796: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:53:57 PM

Damon actually looks like he could play Chameleon. Put some prosthetics and makeup on his face and he'd look the part.

So are they gonna ask Mark Wahlberg next?

edited 30th Mar '18 9:54:17 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83797: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:54:49 PM

What did Matt Damon do to offend, your highness?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83798: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:55:38 PM

I'd appreciate it if I weren't addressed facetiously like that, thank you.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83799: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:56:49 PM

Hey, let's not do this. He passed on the role. There's no need to turn this into a discussion about his personal failings.

Anyway, Chameleon would actually be an interesting choice for the sequel. Kraven too, but now I really want him to be in a Black Panther movie after finding out Coogler really wanted to use him in the first one.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:57:38 PM by comicwriter

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83800: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:58:45 PM

[up][up]It's just that you've been very... assertive lately, and it's starting to grind my gears.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:59:02 PM by PushoverMediaCritic


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