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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#83726: Mar 29th 2018 at 3:24:44 PM

To be frank I don't give a flying f... which version of a character is currently popular in the comics the important question is always what fits the mcu

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83727: Mar 29th 2018 at 3:41:20 PM

I didn't know Selvig was showing up. If he is, Ragnarok makes me rather wary of his chances of living through the film. That movie made it very clear that going forward Marvel is interested in wiping away Thor's previous supporting cast in favor of whatever new guard they decide to introduce.

Though wouldn't it be grand if they adapted Lady Thor in this continuity as Darcy?

edited 29th Mar '18 3:41:33 PM by KnownUnknown

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#83728: Mar 29th 2018 at 3:48:53 PM

That would genuinely be awesome.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#83729: Mar 29th 2018 at 3:56:50 PM

When is elevator or coat hanger going to get the power of Thor though?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83730: Mar 29th 2018 at 4:05:04 PM

Look, there are two horse Thors.

And a car that is Spider-Man.

The elevator's time is nigh.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#83731: Mar 29th 2018 at 4:12:33 PM

@Bocaj Ultimate Peter and Miles were pretty nice. As was Ultimate Thor if memory serves. Also could you elaborate on your comment on Selvig at the top please?

It's been a while, I'll admit, but IIRC, Ultimate Thor was basically normal Thor but with a bigger hammer and also he was a hippie. Which is a really weird direction for Thor, given that in the original mythos, he's basically the Kratos of Norse mythology. He's a bloodthirsty warrior who picks fights with unfathomable horrors for no reason. A thing being larger than him is reason enough for him to slay it.

Mythical Thor has an ongoing feud with Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent - a snake so large that it wraps around the entire planet - that exists solely because it's really big and scary so, consequentially, Thor won't stop messing with it. He's on a quest to prove the size of his...hammer..by fighting all the things.

So the Ultimate comics looked at this and were like, "Clearly, this man would be a peace-loving anti-authority activist. Nothing says Thor like giving speeches on the importance of pulling out of the Iraq war and combatting climate change."

There was a bit of an arc revolving around whether he's really the Norse God of Thunder or just some delusional maniac. But that got wrapped up pretty quickly. Then the second series tried to reopen the question again and it was pretty dumb.

The second series also gave us the aforementioned Hawkeye and Black Widow bits.

EDIT: Also, the Ultimate comics changed the name of the Avengers team to being "the Ultimates", which is a really stupid name. It did not get less stupid when an "Ultimates" team was created for the 616, either.

edited 29th Mar '18 4:14:08 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#83732: Mar 29th 2018 at 4:25:04 PM

I think it's important whenever discussing Marvel Thor to think of him less as Mythological Thor and more as Mythological Baldur. Because he's The Messiah, the heir of Odin, and a hero who learned humility as well as a love for humanity which transcends even his father.

Making him a counterculture mythological hero makes sense from that angle. Besides, for the most part, he's also a guy who may or may not be insane.

edited 29th Mar '18 4:25:47 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#83733: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:08:21 PM

The Thor film semi-adapted Ultimate Thor by making him mistaken for a delusional homeless man and cutting out “Donald Blake” to a reference, but just in the premise while the meat of the story stayed 616.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#83734: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:09:47 PM

But yes, basically Hippie Thor was there to be a counter to Conservative Captain.

Ultimates had a bunch of great ideas for movie adaptations.

They just went a bit too far...like cannibal Hulk.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#83735: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:11:52 PM

The Hulk is a weird character in that writers want him to be this unstoppable rage monster powered by pure violent, bloody fury. But they also want him to be a morally upstanding hero. So, like, he smashes and wrecks things indiscriminately and regularly gets into fights with other superheroes, but also he never hurts anyone that doesn't deserve it.

Cannibal Hulk, like Captain Racist, was an ill-conceived attempt at "real"-ing up the Hulk by stripping out the narrative fiat that prohibits him from ever doing anything too untoward while he's throwing rage-fueled violence tantrums.

edited 29th Mar '18 5:12:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83736: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:17:30 PM

The Ultimates was ultimatesly a bunch of potentially interesting ideas that were Millared up

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#83737: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:21:21 PM

One thing I like with Thor Ragnarok is that although it kind of glosses over the many people Hulk killed in the arena, it gives us a Hulk who can communicate well, has complex feelings, and can even form friendships, but is shitty at being a decent person as a natural consequence of feeling constant anger, and knows this, even though he's reluctant to admit it. Which is also why although he hates to admit it, he needs to (at least sometimes) be Banner, who can do those things.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#83738: Mar 29th 2018 at 5:27:17 PM

[up]The Hulk is a weird character in that writers want him to be this unstoppable rage monster powered by pure violent, bloody fury. But they also want him to be a morally upstanding hero. So, like, he smashes and wrecks things indiscriminately and regularly gets into fights with other superheroes, but also he never hurts anyone that doesn't deserve it.

There's a disconnect between those who are fans of the Hulk and those who know his in-universe reputation. The Hulk is basically the original Mutant and Hero with Bad Publicity. The thing is the Hulk is he's naturally a grumpy and ugly monster with a bad attitude but he's a Jerk with a Heart of Gold. He'll even be nice to people who treat him nice but because he's huge and big, everyone treats him like shit and he's angry and scary back at them.

He doesn't actually rampage, though. He gets blamed for fighting all the villains and people who come after him, though, and not having the good grace to die when the military is trying to kill him.

Ultimate Hulk is basically everything General Ross thought he was.

edited 29th Mar '18 5:27:51 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#83739: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:35:04 PM

@Tobias tbf I'd imagine coming up with a superhero name that isn't stupid is rather difficult.

As for the Hulk, when you've got a guy powered by rage it's very difficult if not outright impossible to see him as a hero.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#83740: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:53:37 PM

The Ang Lee Hulk film, for all its flaws, had the right hook for the Hulk where the focus isn't on him being a hero but a psychologically damaged man whose anger issues stem from his severe trauma and emotional repression.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83741: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:01:02 PM

I'm beginning to think I didn't appreciate Ang Lee Hulk enough.

.... I still like TIH though, and all of you are wrong.

One Strip! One Strip!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#83742: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:02:05 PM

I saw it like last year. I admit it has a lot of problems and I can understand why people don't like it, but I personally really enjoyed it and I think if nothing else it's a very interesting film with a lot of great ideas and well-executed moments even if it doesn't all come together perfectly.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#83743: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:11:32 PM

It also has the best written version of General Ross.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83744: Mar 30th 2018 at 3:06:41 AM

Ang Lee Hulk has some great ideas, but it falls on its face on every single one of them and is thoroughly boring to boot. Incredible Hulk inspires to do much less, but it follows through on what it wants to. The fight scenes are great and the villain actually has a character arc, which is much more than the utter snoozefest of Ang Lee's Hulk. The only good thing about that film is the musical score, which doesn't even fit a Hulk movie.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#83745: Mar 30th 2018 at 6:37:58 AM

[up]As for the Hulk, when you've got a guy powered by rage it's very difficult if not outright impossible to see him as a hero.

Given he's angry because people are being abused, treating him like crap, and treating other people like crap—I don't see why. Then again, the 70s show was all about a really calm guy Walking the Earth and seeing local injustice.

Comic Hulk is more, "The Juggernaut is destroying the town, Hulk gets mad, people blame Hulk for destroying town."

edited 30th Mar '18 6:38:26 AM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#83746: Mar 30th 2018 at 6:51:32 AM

The first clip of Infinity War has been released online.

It's on Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy, but y'know, spoilers and all that.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#83747: Mar 30th 2018 at 7:00:41 AM

[up][up]there's getting angry at injustice and there's turning into a living nuke.

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#83749: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:24:59 AM

So, let's talk Phase One for a bit.

I don't really think there's a coherent story to Phase One as a whole. It's not the story of how SHIELD was formed. It's not the story of the emergence of superheroes (and villains) in the MCU. It's not the story of Earth's introduction to the rest of the galaxy. It's just a series of individual, occasionally intersecting stories. That's not a bad thing necessarily, although it would have been cool if they had managed to craft one overarching narrative out of the individual stories.

Ranking the movies from best to worst, I would go with Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Captain America, The Avengers, The Incredible Hulk. The Iron Man movies win out purely on the strength of their acting. Robert Downey Jr does a fantastic job as both Tony Stark and Iron Man, and the supporting actors (particularly Jeff Bridges in Iron Man and Don Cheadle in Iron Man 2) were also excellent. Captain America was good, but Chris Evans doesn't quite reach that level. The Avengers we just talked about pretty extensively, and The Incredible Hulk was largely silly, empty action scenes.

Honestly, I'm not really the idea of "Phase One" really means anything? It's not like Phase 2 goes in a wildly different direction or anything. It's another Iron Man movie, another Thor movie, another Captain America movie, and another Avengers movie (plus Guardians of the Galaxy, which is largely standalone, and Ant Man, which I actually don't know anything about). Maybe it's just a production thing? "Phase One" is as far as they planned out when they started the MCU up to begin with, then "Phase Two" is the second block they planned out, etc? But if that's the case, it's gotten a lot of public attention. Maybe it's just fandom being fandom and blowing up a relatively minor, internal thing into something it was never intended to be.

We'll see, anyway. The only two MCU movies I've seen before that I haven't rewatched yet are Iron Man 3 and Guardians of the Galaxy, and both of those are in Phase Two, so they're next up. Maybe I'll be able to see a more coherent theme in Phase One after I finish Phase Two.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83750: Mar 30th 2018 at 9:37:56 AM

I think Phase One was basically just a proof of concept. They wanted to see if this whole shared superhero universe could work out. If it hadn't been a huge success they'd have released sequels to some of their heroes and ended it with another Avengers movie. But then Avengers became a smash hit and they decided to get more ambitious. I think Guardians being successful too is what convinced them to keep going. That was the first big sign they could take an obscure property and make it huge.


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