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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83676: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:16:44 AM

I actually like that Black Widow and Hawkeye got good character moments. If not here, where?

I don't really buy the argument that they haven't been built up enough to have these moments because the movie effectively conveys how much Hawkeye means to Natasha.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#83677: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:17:21 AM

Would be interesting if you had bunch of them that effectively surrendered and explored the aftermarth and why they came to Earth and basically humanised them,instead of making them faceless alien invaders

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83678: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:25:16 AM

They could have interrogated one in Infinity War

"Who is Thanos? How do we stop him?"
-Chitauri laughter-

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#83679: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:53:10 AM

Whedon initially did not want to use this trope, but ultimately went for it because it would take even longer to depict the Avengers finishing off all the remaining aliens.
Eh, the Avengers were largely dealing with them as they arrived, and they specifically had Cap organizing everyone to try keep them as contained as possible, plus we start to see conventional military forces show up at the tail end of the battle. I don't think it'd be a problem to show them starting to take over after the portal closes would take that much more time than showing all the aliens just falling over dead. Either that, or set it up beforehand that the aliens are somehow dependant on the mothership for... something. As is, it just makes you go "wait, what? Why'd they all die? Were they robots or something??"

I don't really buy the argument that they haven't been built up enough to have these moments because the movie effectively conveys how much Hawkeye means to Natasha.
The problem is "why should we care?" We've already got four main characters across five different movies, plus side characters like Fury and Coulson. What do Black Widow and Hawkeye add that couldn't have been done with already-developed characters? I don't mind them being around as generic SHIELD agents like Hill, but I don't think including them as main characters makes the movie better. It seems to be mostly because they were Avengers in the comics.

Would be interesting if you had bunch of them that effectively surrendered and explored the aftermarth and why they came to Earth and basically humanised them,instead of making them faceless alien invaders
SHIELD having some legit aliens on their hands could be taken in a number of different directions, but if you don't want to open that can of worms, just saying they all fought to the death and refused surrender or allow themselves to be taken captive works well enough. As [up] points out, they also make for a good way to get humanity clued in to the wider galactic situation. (Given that I haven't seen the movies where that's actually relevant yet, this may or may not be a good thing as far as the narrative is concerned.)

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83680: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:54:36 AM

Twenty bucks says that We don't want to kill you but we will part is Natasha talking to Tony.tongue

And yeah, I can buy Sam not being a big fan of Tony or T'challa...well, more Tony because he's Tony Stark.

I'm not actually clear on why he would dislike T'challa.

One Strip! One Strip!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83682: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:03:13 AM

That makes sense I guess.

Some people don't like that.

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83683: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:39:48 AM

In Germany don't a lot of people there get taught to speak English too or something? Could maybe explain the scene in Stuttgart.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#83684: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:48:26 AM

Late to this, but my main problem with the whole Clint and Natasha subplot is that it mostly just works in Nat's favor. Clint meanwhile spends most of the film brainwashed and contributes very little outside of giving Natasha something to angst over, to the point where he feels like a satellite character, so I don't have much of a reason to care about him for his own sake.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:48:42 AM by Draghinazzo

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83685: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:54:48 AM

Usually its the other way around for her. Womp womp.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83686: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:11:52 AM

It saddens me that the guy who saved the universe with a simple carny trick and was so awesome, he became a member of the Justice League (he's part of a super hero team from a different company) is considered so irrelevant.

It's also rather frustrating. Hawkeye should have more respect than that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83687: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:25:19 AM

He's also a serial sexual harasser so.

That aside, he gets a good showing in Age of Ultron and even to a lesser extent Civil War. Its understandable that something had to give in Avengers and unfortunately it was arrow guy who got sidelined.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83688: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:34:19 AM

He's also a serial sexual harasser so.

WHAT?! WHEN!? I WANT VIDEO PROOF OF THIS!!!!

I never even heard of such a thing.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83689: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:42:25 AM

Would you accept panel proof because we are talking about a comic character?

I mean its down to differing cultural norms I guess and people really should have known better but here we are. Hawkeye not infrequently forces kisses on women or stalks them to California to beat up their Daredevil boyfriend in front of them to try to win them back. He ragequit the Avengers once because Scarlet Witch decided she liked Vision and clearly there was no reason to hang around if he couldn't try to score.

Dude could be a creep. I think in more current times he's so 'pot of cold coffee to get through the day' that he's more about terrible choice in women and inability to emotionally connect rather than harassment.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#83690: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:44:41 AM

MCU Hawkeye is more based on Ultimate Universe Hawkeye (SHIELD Agent, partner to Black Widow, founding team member, etc), complete with being a family man with a wife and kids.

Hopefully that doesn't end as poorly here as it did in Ultimates.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83691: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:45:04 AM

A lot of that was in the 70s and 80s, when for whatever reason people seemed to think dudes forcing themselves on women was romantic.

New International spot.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83692: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:49:47 AM

Probably had something to do with most writers being dudes

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#83693: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:51:24 AM

Whedon talks on the Avengers commentary track about how he had originally written much more material for Hawkeye in his early drafts. But as he worked with Marvel to edit it down, a lot of it got cut out and what we ended up with was the only way that he could think of to keep Hawkeye involved. He also said that he felt kind of bad that Jeremy Renner got so much less to do than the others.

If anything, Hawkeye's role in AOU felt almost like Whedon's apology to Renner for that. Heck he even had Hawkeye be the only team member not mind-tricked by Wanda, and Clint even outmaneuvered her when she tried.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83694: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:17:03 AM

But unfortunately, that attempt at fleshing out Hawkeye was the farm...

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83695: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:20:16 AM

The farm was one of the better bits of the movie, if you ignore the poorly conveyed Bruce/Natasha scene.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#83696: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:29:07 AM

Yeah the farm stuff was really good. Also Clint's kids calling BW "Aunt Nat" will never not be adorable.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#83697: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:48:42 AM

Loki's motivation doesn't make a whole lot of sense (he plans to use an artifact of staggering cosmic power as... a bargaining chip to rule one measly planet?) and his plan is ridiculously circuitous when he seemingly could have, you know, just killed everyone.

That's implied to be deliberate. The film knows that Loki's plan is shit; that's why everyone and their dog gets a chance to tell him so to his face. The characters discuss repeatedly that Loki is not behaving like a rational actor and that there is no actual win condition for him in all this. Meanwhile, the Other straight-up tortures him and he stands there and takes it like an abused dog who knows his place.

Loki likes to talk in the film like his plan is to use the Cube as a bargaining chip, but his actual plan is, "Maybe if I retrieve this artifact for my Master, he'll give me a treat and he won't burn my face again."

Thanos is the villain in Avengers 1. Loki's his emissary. The Silver Surfer to his Galactus.

We've had five movies worth of character development, why are we focusing on one character who had minimal development (Black Widow played a part in Iron Man 2) and one who had none at all (Hawkeye shows up in one scene of Thor, where he does nothing)?

Because the other members of the team had five movies' worth of character development but those two had yet to receive any onscreen focus.

(plus Banner Hulking out for little apparent reason than dramatic necessity)

Immediately before that, he and the others were having a high-stress screaming match about how Everyone Except Me Sucks, amplified by Loki's Staff. Then he took an explosion to the face. You try keeping your heart rate at a manageable level under those conditions.

No, the part that stands out as awkward and doesn't really work is the line, "I'm always angry," and subsequent controlled transformation. It seems to imply that Banner has attained a mastery over his transformation, which proves untrue in previous movies, in this movie, and in subsequent movies.

Captain America and Iron Man's personality conflict would have made more sense if Cap knew Iron Man from before he was Iron Man, but he didn't and Tony's had two movies' worth of character development that makes Cap come off as just being a dick, which is super out of character for him.

One thing that I think would have made this work better is if Cap had unresolved issues towards Howard and was screaming at Tony as a proxy. Because Tony's his father's son, and Steve sees all the stuff he didn't like about Howard in Tony.

Tony resents Steve because he blames him for his father's obsessions resulting in the absence of affection he received growing up, and he got sick of hearing about how great Steve was. Steve resents Tony because he thought Howard was an asshole and just sees Tony as Howard Stark Mk.II.

Bonus points if Steve actually calls Tony "Howard" during the screaming match, resulting in a reaction shot where everyone stops and processes what he just said.

But, regrettably, they didn't go that route.

EDIT: Ooh, and then it could have come back up during Civil War. "Steve hid the truth about my parents from me because Bucky's his friend but he always hated my dad."

edited 29th Mar '18 11:53:35 AM by TobiasDrake

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83698: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:53:45 AM

To be fair, it's Tony. Guy is easy to hate.

edited 29th Mar '18 11:54:21 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83699: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:55:10 AM

The farm was one of the better bits of the movie, if you ignore the poorly conveyed Bruce/Natasha scene.

I have no problem with the scenes itself, but I felt giving Clint a wife and kids was a mistake. I wanted the grungy loser bachelor Clint from the Fraction series.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#83700: Mar 29th 2018 at 11:55:13 AM

[up] Movies or Comics?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.

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