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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83201: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:04:36 PM

If you really appreciate its nuances, then surely you can come up with a less ignorant-seeming and cliched rebuttal than "it's a normal thing that happens, and I will not acknowledge either social power imbalances or the fact that normal things that happen aren't always inherently good."

Nothing you've said so far has remotely suggested an actual appreciation for its nuances, and you yourself have admitted that you don't always bother to do basic reading on a complicated topic before jumping in and giving your expert opinion, so you'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:05:53 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#83202: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:17:15 PM

[up][up]

That is 100% A-OK.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83203: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:17:45 PM

I can understand frustration with the use of cultural ideas - for example - I feel this very same emotion when it comes to certain aspects of the Shin Megami Tensei series. Specifically, the entire world is a battle ground between God (outright the Abrahamic God, as proven by use of the Tetragrammattion YHWH) and Lucifer (referred to by name). God is at best a Lawful Stupid Blue-and-Orange Morality creature with no regard for humanity and at worst a genocidal Knight Templar. He is always evil and often more evil than Lucifer. There is certainly none of the overwhelming love of mankind I and other Christians believe he has.

This is from a country that has persecuted Christians and forced Christians to choose between execution and conversion (in the distant past, certainly with no living Japanese people having persecuted Christians, but a lot of abuses cited for the purposes come from as old or older and there are certainly few Christians in Japan today, which again for the purposes of cultural appropriation would qualify as marginalised).

This is hardly an isolated incident in Japanese media. In manga, video games and anime Abrahamic symbols, especially the church, angels and God are often tacked onto things with no regard for their true meaning. Organisations vaguely patterned after the church, especially the catholic church rarely show any real resemblance below the surface and are often (though not always) villainous. There is not only no respect but no understanding or comprehension below the symbols in the vast majority of cases.

However, while this annoys me and I feel is disrespectful to my religion I cannot argue that this is cultural appropriation. These people are merely using symbols that they see because they like how they look. That is their right. I think no more of it and ask no more from anyone else.

After all, no one has a copyright on a cross, or an angel wing, or even the Tetragrammation. They exist as vague concepts.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:22:34 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83204: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:17:49 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Huh well color me surprised. surprised

edited 19th Mar '18 7:18:07 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#83205: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:17:58 PM

The problem is that there's a difference between "adopting aspects of a culture outside your own without an understanding or respect for what those aspects represent" and "being immersed in a culture other than the one you were born in".

And acting as if Danny, who spent ten years in New York and then fifteen in a completely different culture, is solely (or even, I'd argue, majorly) an example of the former sort of cultural appropriation also feels like it's in bad faith, because the timescale that we're given makes a much more convincing argument for the latter.

There are more nuances to the argument than that, Finn Jones' acting/the direction he was given/the script really don't help matters. But I do think it's disingenuous to treat the entire thing like it's horribly offensive when the outsider perspective is part of the point. And while being an outsider doesn't necessitate him being white, I would argue that him being white does give a lot more impact and meaning to his dynamic with Luke.

All in all, while I do definitely see the troubling Mighty Whitey implications and we do need more Asian representation, especially after Dr. Strange, I still think Iron Fist isn't the hill to die on for making either of those points, because there's a conversation to be had in universe about those implications. It's a shame that the show isn't better, but maybe we can hope for an exploration of these things in season 2. After all, they made a point out of showcasing how terrible Danny is at his job, I'm willing to bet that him being a "thundering dumbass" is leading somewhere.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83206: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:21:00 PM

[up][up][up][up]Please explain why.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:21:16 PM by wisewillow

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83207: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:22:28 PM

Pretty sure he's making a joke.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#83208: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:23:55 PM

To Sigilbreaker 26 : Oh, I'm a SMT fanboy!!

And honestly, The whole franchise is filled with Unfortunate Implications.

Remember, this is a franchise where The Social Darwinist Japanese nationalist that acussed America from having a conspiracy to Take Over the World was Right. And more importantly, that conspiracy was leaded for the Messians, whose clothes are either catholic or Jewish (in fact, the messian acolyte mook looks like a jewish stereotype) are showed as less sympathetic than a guy trying to revive imperial Japan.

That is super problematic

edited 19th Mar '18 7:26:14 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83209: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:25:39 PM

I still think Iron Fist isn't the hill to die on for making either of those points, because there's a conversation to be had in universe about those implications. It's a shame that the show isn't better, but maybe we can hope for an exploration of these things in season 2. After all, they made a point out of showcasing how terrible Danny is at his job, I'm willing to bet that him being a "thundering dumbass" is leading somewhere.

It was very much a hill to die on especially prior to the show's finalization, because people were hoping to actually remove the problematic elements rather than just hope that at some point the characters would lampshade it.

Also, Sigilbreaker - so there is a situation in which you find cultural depictions in media offensive and disrespectful (at least, when it's you they're disrespecting). So is it really just the phrase "cultural appropriation" itself that's so inexplicably abhorrent to you?

If I just said that I felt the conceit behind Iron Fist was annoying and disrespectful to myself as an Asian-American, without using the dreaded phrase of "cultural appropriation," would you have any modicum of respect for that, or would you continue to dismiss it as "dumb and always dumb" without even bothering to hear me out?

edited 19th Mar '18 7:26:21 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83210: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:26:34 PM

MCU phase three timeline

I've been thinking about the Civil War/Homecoming timeline retcon, and it's actually quite simple.

Long has it been established that Phase 1 takes place over a year and a half in universe. Iron Man happens, then Fury's Big Week is six months after that, and Avengers Assemble is a year after that week.

But Phase 1 was released over the course of five years.

Prior to the retcon, the phase 1 timeline was shifted forward so that Avengers Assemble was set in the same year it was released, but after the retcon, it's Iron Man which is set the same year as it's released. Shifting the events of Phase 1 back by three years.

This has the effect of doubling the length of time Phase 2 takes place over. (Which is kinda fine by me. Most of those three years can be stuffed between Winter Soilder and Age of Ultron easily, and it allows room for Iron Man 3 to take place in a Christmas which previously there wasn't room for in the timeline.

So the Phase 2 films get shifted back 3 or 2 years save for Age of Ultron which doesn't move, and Guardians of the Galaxy which is explicitly set in 2014.

It also has the added effect that thr timeline of Doctor Strange works a lot better. We all moaned about how Stephan became a Master in way too short a time span, given that the climax happens in 2016 (presumably) Stephan's accident happens after Avengers because Avengers tower can be seen and not Stark Tower at the begining of the film, and it takes a year for Stephan to bankrupt himself before going to Khama-Taj. So previously when Avengers Assemble took place in 2012, Stephan had a maximum of three years of magic training. But post retcon, with Avengers now taking place in 2009, he has a maximum of six years of magic training (long enough to complete an undergrad degree and a Ph D).

I've put way too much thought into this haven't I?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83211: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:28:08 PM

One of the primary reasons cultural appropriation is a problem is that it allows the dominant culture to express the idea of minority cultures while not having to actually give those cultures any opportunities and exposure - thus culturally and even at times literally disenfranchising creators and members of those races, and contributing to the backwards idea of "white" as "normal."

A good example that this thread is well versed in being Mighty Whitey, and why that trope is so reviled these days: the image of The Theme Park Version of nonwhite cultures being useful to help white heroes grow but at the same time needing those heroes to save them and be the best image of themselves that they couldn't be themselves is highly insulting and extremely ubiquitous.

Another major reason is that it allows the dominant culture to present the minority cultures in any way or form they so wish while preventing those cultures from expressing themselves, thus keeping the narrative of those cultures' existence and history outside of their control. Hence the necessity of things like Black Panther to overturn, say, the centuries long presentation of African cultures as barbaric and uncivilized.

I'm curious as to why this conversation is even still going on, though, given that the main person saying "cultural appropriation is stupid" has explicitly made it known that they know very little about the subject at all and is only keeping this going because they don't care to know. At this point it's pounding against a brick wall at best, feeding a troll at worst.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:32:04 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83212: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:31:31 PM

Also, Sigilbreaker - so there is a situation in which you find cultural depictions in media offensive and disrespectful (at least, when it's you they're disrespecting). So is it really just the phrase "cultural appropriation" itself that's so inexplicably abhorrent to you?

Well since no one else said it before I did, no. Also, there's no point acting like I'm a hypocrite when I specifically say that I have absolutely no right to complain about it or act like they should change at all.

If I just said that I felt the conceit behind Iron Fist was annoying and disrespectful to myself as an Asian-American, without using the dreaded phrase of "cultural appropriation," would you have any modicum of respect for that, or would you continue to dismiss it as "dumb and always dumb" without even bothering to hear me out?

I would disagree with you. I have also shown that I was willing to hear out everyone here.

feeding a troll at worst.

I'm not a troll just because I disagree with a sociological theory. I have clearly displayed understanding of what that theory is.

A person can understand why Mighty Whitey is bad while not agreeing with the theory about cultural appropriation - which I have mentioned on a previous page.

Quoth myself:

The problem with Mighty Whitey is that they have to make white people do everything in a setting.

It is not that white people are doing things that are traditionally Asian. That's not inherently problematic, and neither would it be for any possible combination of ethnic groups occupying places 'X' and 'Y' there.

If no one wants to continue the conversation that's fine but misrepresenting what I've said is not.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:37:33 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83213: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:38:10 PM

You're a troll because you've consistently responded to actual information and arguments to the contrary with the effect of "no it isn't" or "I don't have a problem with it, so you shouldn't either" or generally countering points about the historical impact of the issue with nothing but implications that the entire subject is ludicrous, while consistently ignoring those points with nothing but, again, effectively "nope, you're wrong" but little actual substance.

You literally baited people about a cultural phenomenon that people have been suffering from and criticizing for quite a long time with the effect of "well, it's been happening for thousands of years, so get over it," and your responses haven't gotten any less poor since.

You're not leading the conversation anywhere positive. You're not someone people ont his thread need to be spending several pages arguing against. You might not be a troll, but you're certainly feeding a debate which you have no actual intention of contributing positively to.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:41:14 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83214: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:40:54 PM

If you don't agree with my point of view that's fine, but that's just the push and pull of the internet. You can't describe someone opposing your POV as "not contributing positively" purely because of that.

I'm fine arguing a position but if these attacks are going to get personal - which they already have - then I'm going to leave. I'm not going to stick around for ad hominem.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:42:20 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83215: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:41:37 PM

Yeah Sigil, you've acted the same way in other threads like you are now, except this time the subject matter is a tad more serious. Just read what they have to say this time.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:42:52 PM by VeryMelon

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83216: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:42:15 PM

[up][up] [up]Very well said.

So, I’m trying to decide what my favorite MCU movie is. I feel like we almost need genre categories; the films have a decent range of tone, style, and themes.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:42:32 PM by wisewillow

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83217: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:42:42 PM

I would disagree with you. I have also shown that I was willing to hear out everyone here.

And by your own admission, you wouldn't even understand that it was you were disagreeing with, because you didn't bother to do even the most rudimentary research into the topic before sticking your oar in.

For that matter, I don't think that refusing to read the basic information required to participate in the discussion and dismissing criticism as "dumb then and dumb now" without further elaboration counts as "hearing everyone out." Particularly when you conveniently fail to respond to the most pertinent sections of people's posts.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83218: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:43:24 PM

I didn't refuse to read the information. When people offered it, I read, I said it was good, I even changed part of my position on it. I went into this discussion thinking that making the American guy who goes to Kun'lun Asian would be problematic and now I don't think that, I saw that I was off the mark and that that argument had more sway then I previously thought. I now believe I was incorrect in that regard and I've changed my position. But I still don't think having him white would be necessarily more problematic than the large lack of Asian representation in the MCU and I still stand by that.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:45:37 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83219: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:43:49 PM

Again, I ask people to just drop this. It's only going to serve to frustrate.

I feel like we almost need genre categories; the films have a decent range of tone, style, and themes.

It's my favorite thing about the MCU. I keep wanting to see if they'll do more: I'd love a mystery movie, or a globe/universe trotting adventure movie (best suited to the Fantastic Four, I think), etc.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:48:58 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83220: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:48:20 PM

Changing the subject to something more pleasant...

What is your secretly good MCU film? Which one do you like that's generally hated?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Berrenta MOD Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#83221: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:48:25 PM

Indeed. Let's just move on, okay?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83222: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:49:16 PM

So the MCU comedy genre would be Ant-Man, Guardians 1, Thor: Ragnarok ... any others?

MCU straight action would be IM, IM 2, IM 3, TIH, CA: TFA.

Okay my sub-genre idea doesn’t quite work.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83223: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:50:24 PM

For a while I thought Captain America was going with a Spy Thriller feel but that only lasted for Winter Soldier and Civil War is an Avengers Movie in all but name.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
unexplainedEnemy from hell pit Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#83224: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:50:25 PM

I feel like Guardians 2 could fall into the action-comedy category, although it has a much more solid emotional core than the first.

My favorite movie out of the "Shakespearean Tragedy" category is Black Panther. tongue

(Also, is Homecoming MCU? I'm very confused about which company has which rights to the Spiderman franchise.)

edited 19th Mar '18 7:51:16 PM by unexplainedEnemy

they're gonna find intelligent life up there on the moon/and the canterbury tales will shoot up to the top of the best-seller list
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83225: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:51:28 PM

I also think we can throw all the Thor movies in the comedy pile, not because they're majority comedy but because the only good bits are the comedy.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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