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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#83176: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:42:34 PM

I'll be honest here: I think that War Machine is useless as f... Mostly because he doesn't bring anything to the table none of the other heroes does, having more or less the same stick Iron man has, but, well, less cool and less interesting. Falcon has the advantage of his suit being different than Ironman, having the advantage of being able to glide and hence being more stealthy if needed.

The most difficult part about all those hand-to-hand combat heroes is to make their abilities different enough that it doesn't get boring.

XJTordecai Watch the seventh wave Since: Jun, 2013
Watch the seventh wave
#83177: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:44:57 PM

All those thoughts on Iron Man 1 a few pages back prompted me to find it online and watch it finally. It's actually quite good, aged better than I expected. Just a really solid, fun, well-made movie that serves as a damn good first impression of this big ol' franchise. Too bad it had to be immediately followed by TIH and IM 2, which uh, aren't quite as good.

On my wave, passing oooooooon
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83178: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:19:36 PM

"...What, because one Asian guy is basically the same as another? Even when one is a rich American and the other is a foreigner and son of a crime lord?

Danny Rand and Shang-Chi are completely different characters, and suggesting that merely making Danny Asian-American renders him effectively interchangeable with Shang-Chi - or even superfluous because "we already have one" - is frankly offensive."

Not what I was saying at all. I was saying that the MCU needs more Asian representation and it annoys me that people have latched onto IF specifically.note  The reason I don't have a problem with Shiang-Chi is that he just grew up with martial arts while for a rich pampered American it would feel like, quite frankly, "now your blood is calling, got to go learn kung fu".

If Asian-Americans don't find that problematic (as others have informed me the online community suggests not) then I guess I'm just jumping at shadows. However, that still doesn't mean it's problematic for a white guy to be the IF, which is the other side of the argument.

(BTW, having both Danny Rand (of whatever ethnic group) and Shiang-Chi on the same team wouldn't be a good idea because they have the exact same powers (and this is already a team where they both have pretty big overlap with Daredevil). )

"Let's have a white American person go to Asia, master Asian martial arts and earn a magical title that none of the locals were apparently worthy of, and spend the rest of the story fighting evil and thoroughly dehumanized Yellow Peril stereotypes. Nothing problematic there whatsoever."

I mean, whatever ethnic group you make them, they're still going to be learning martial arts and earning this title as an outsider. The only difference making him Asian is that an Asian person would be doing these things. Are you saying that it would be more believable that an Asian person could learn martial arts despite starting from the same base point of 'nil'?

Heck, unless that character's family is specifically drawn from the ethnic groups one of those five Himilayan countries note  - heck, from the specific local region - it's still technically someone who's coming from a foreign ethnic group (unless you're willing to treat all Asian cultures and ethnic groups as interchangeable).

Yellow peril stereotypes? Yes, those are bad.

"Here's a question that I can't help but wonder if you'll ignore: have you ever read any of the articles and thinkpieces that launched #AA Iron Fist?"

No I haven't read any of it. You hear this sort of stuff every so often and it's usually people whining about cultural appropriation and all that nonsense. It's dumb then and it's dumb now.

I find it annoying that the MCU doesn't have enough Asian representation. I don't find it annoying that IF specifically is not Asian.

edited 19th Mar '18 6:23:25 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83179: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:27:09 PM

True Manderin, Iron Man 3 twist, Danny Rand's ethnisity, the Ancient One, all of this thread's bugbears save "who was right in Civil War" is out tonight. (And I think we did that last night)

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#83180: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:30:01 PM

Who was right in Civil War? It doesn't really matter, since both Stark and Rogers are actually Tilda Swinton in a asian stereotype disguise, hired by Scott Buck to fuck with Tibet.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83181: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:36:42 PM

The problem with Civil War is the same as the comics - if you had the act being enacted by sensible people it would be a more or less sensible measure but it's not, so it's not. It's the usual sort of cheating you see when writers want to make one side right, though ironically it was applied to the side that was supposed to be wrong.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83182: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:39:12 PM

[up]x4

No I haven't read any of it. You hear this sort of stuff every so often and it's usually people whining about cultural appropriation and all that nonsense. It's dumb then and it's dumb now.

Okay, dismissing the entire concept of cultural appropriation as dumb is insulting to everyone trying to converse with you, especially when you admit you haven’t read about the topic. You also ignored my post explaining why people latched onto Iron Fist. It’s rude to dismiss the discussion wlthout actually reading about the issues.

Here’s one analysis from io9 .

If you’re going to engage in prolonged conversation about a topic, you owe it to yourself and to your conversational partners to be somewhat informed. If you don’t want to learn more, then don’t continue the discussion while staying willfully ignorant.

edited 19th Mar '18 6:44:16 PM by wisewillow

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83183: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:45:04 PM

That article isn't bad (appreciated the bit about "returning to your home").

Still don't entirely agree with it.

I've already said in my post that I now understand why it isn't problematic for him to be Asian, but I still don't understand why it's problematic for him to be white.

Also, cultural appropriation is a dumb idea and will continue to be dumb - even as the author points out "And that’s to say nothing of how this Danny’s Asian ethnicity—being Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.—would clash with with the culture of K’un-Lun. As stated before, Asia isn’t a monolith, contrary to the assumption of Hollywood for years and years."

...so... no matter what ethnic group he is, he's still going to be "appropriating".

edited 19th Mar '18 6:51:00 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83184: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:48:05 PM

...the article I posted. Literally explains that.

Here’s another explanation.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#83185: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:49:23 PM

[up][up][up][up] It's not really cheating, since Civil War presents both sides of the argument and the desired conclusion is that what is needed is something in the middle of both point of views by demonstrating what the most extreme outcome of the respective stances can be. Heroes who don't have to answer to anyone can fast turn to seeking vengeance instead of Justice. On the flip side we also see how the desire to control powered people can go way overboard.

edited 19th Mar '18 6:49:35 PM by Swanpride

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83186: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:51:51 PM

Not what I was saying at all.

That might be why it wasn't your post that was in the quoteblock. I was responding to Very Melon, not you.

I mean, whatever ethnic group you make them, they're still going to be learning martial arts and earning this title as an outsider. The only difference making him Asian is that an Asian person would be doing these things. Are you saying that it would be more believable that an Asian person could learn martial arts despite starting from the same base point of 'nil'?

Is representation about believably now? That's certainly an odd perspective to be approaching things from. From hearing you complain about Finn, you seem to understand the concept of representation being important, so what's "believable" from a Watsonian standpoint shouldn't be relevant.

Heck, unless that character's family is specifically drawn from the ethnic groups one of those five Himilayan countries note - heck, from the specific local region - it's still technically someone who's coming from a foreign ethnic group (unless you're willing to treat all Asian cultures and ethnic groups as interchangeable).

But he's not a Mighty Whitey. This isn't rocket science.

No I haven't read any of it. You hear this sort of stuff every so often and it's usually people whining about cultural appropriation and all that nonsense. It's dumb then and it's dumb now.

Ahh, here we go - we finally got the part where we airily dismiss criticisms as "whining about cultural appropriation and all that nonsense," thereby justifying you having not done any reading or rudimentary research whatsoever before leaping into a sensitive conversation like some sort of expert. I have to say, it's hard to argue with such masterful responses to social critique as "it's dumb then and it's dumb now."

edited 19th Mar '18 6:52:12 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83187: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:52:02 PM

[up][up][up] Wow, that link isn't patronising at all.

I'm done with this conversation.

edited 19th Mar '18 6:52:39 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83188: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:53:09 PM

[up]x6 “Cultural appropriation is a dumb idea”

Your thesis is missing supporting evidence. Merely repeating the statement does not make it so.

Here’s a discussion on defining cultural appropriation, you might find it educational. It’s an actual article.

[up] Yes, it was patronizing. You are not conducting this argument in good faith. Making blanket statements and assertions while refusing to conduct basic research about the topic is insulting to your conversational partners.

edited 19th Mar '18 6:55:52 PM by wisewillow

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83189: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:53:38 PM

Ha. Nothing like explicitly referring to criticisms of cultural representation made by marginalized racial groups as being universally "dumb then and dumb now," and then complaining about people not being polite enough.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83190: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:55:34 PM

I think civil war was The Avengers fault because that kind of policy agreement and approval is something they should have begin hashing out way back when they first decided to reform and hunt Hydra down after The Winter Soldier (not sure what year that took place in. The Phase two timeline is WEIRD now that Avengers takes place in 2009)

But because they sat on it they've had to face a slap dash rubbish document being rushed out by panicked ministers at the worse time possible.

Pepper Potts would never have allowed this.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83191: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:55:46 PM

"Cultural appropriation" is the unchecked spread of cultural symbols and ideas on a surface level only and has been happening for literally thousands of years all throughout human history.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83192: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:57:05 PM

That’s not the actual definition. It’s not even close. Please, please actually read about the topic.

From the other Wiki: “Cultural appropriation, often framed as cultural misappropriation, is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from equal cultural exchange due to the presence of a colonial element and imbalance of power.”

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83193: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:57:26 PM

Spoken like someone who has never bothered to actually take the time to understand the nuances behind complaints of cultural appropriation, because they're too busy immediately dismissing them as "dumb then and dumb now."

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83194: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:58:12 PM

...What, because one Asian guy is basically the same as another?

No? I'm just saying I'd prefer a character who was already Asian over a race-lift. It wasn't any of that other stuff you said. Damn, didn't think I'd get a response that heated over what amounts to an assumption that there'd only be one other Defender with their own show.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:03:38 PM by VeryMelon

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83195: Mar 19th 2018 at 6:59:37 PM

You know what's even better? Having both.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#83196: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:00:02 PM

Cultural appropriation in a nutshell: Yeah because I'm actually dumb enough to get involved in this argument. Psych!

In unrelated news, still debating whether to go see Infinity War in theaters. I don't like Hulk.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#83197: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:00:35 PM

Hulk not like you too.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83198: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:01:11 PM

I've heard cultural appropriation used in arguments dozens of times. I appreciate its naunces. I just don't agree with the idea - or rather, that it is negative. There are quite a few sociological ideas I disagree with.

Heck, no one could agree with all sociological theories because as with any non-empirical science it has many theories that are mutually contradictory.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:11:46 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83199: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:03:08 PM

[up][up][up]If it helps, apparently Banner uses the Hulkbuster for a good portion of the fight.

edited 19th Mar '18 7:03:21 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83200: Mar 19th 2018 at 7:04:36 PM

[up][up]Okay, let’s go with one example. If I understand correctly, you think it’s cool for white girls to run around in faux Native American headdresses? You think that’s not gross or rude, even though the headdresses have both spiritual and ceremonial importance? Even though actual native Americans were murdered and driven from their lands, and much of their culture extinguished, yet now a significant item of their culture is worn as a joke or sexy costume?

edited 19th Mar '18 7:05:01 PM by wisewillow


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