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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83151: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:50:48 PM

'm sick of people implying that Danny Rand's storyline would have been better if he was Asian or that it's somehow problematic because he's white. Danny Rand is a rich businessman who learns magic martial arts. Making him Asian would just be enforcing All Asians Know Kung Fu.

What a thoroughly original talking point that certainly hasn't been explicitly addressed and refuted since literally day one of the #AAIronFist campaign, and been discussed to death right here on these very forums.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#83152: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:51:27 PM

Wong is a native Kamar-Tajian, and Kamar-Taj is located in the Himalayas near or overlapping with, but not directly identified as part of what is real-world Tibet or Nepal. It's not quite Tibetan erasure, since Wong is not Tibetan, in the same way that T'Challa is not Ugandan or Rwandan just because Wakanda happens to be there. And according to Wong's comics biography he does actually have Chinese ancestry, so Benedict Wong is not ethnically mismatched.

But it is hypocritical in the sense that the casting is guilty of the same logic that was employed to justify whitewashing the Ancient One.

edited 19th Mar '18 3:53:30 PM by AlleyOop

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83153: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:55:49 PM

I flipped flopped on the Danny Rand race thing for a while. I was stuck between "Make him any race other than white or east Asian" and "Don't erase Marvel's first prominant interracial marriage between him and Misty Knight"

Some how I ended up with the worst of both worlds.

edited 19th Mar '18 4:01:04 PM by Whowho

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#83154: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:56:48 PM

.If you're saying "they should have had Shiang-Chi instead of IF in the Defenders because IF turned out to be a knock-off Arrow in execution" then yeah, sure, but I'm sick of people implying that Danny Rand's storyline would have been better if he was Asian or that it's somehow problematic because he's white. Danny Rand is a rich businessman who learns magic martial arts. Making him Asian would just be enforcing All Asians Know Kung Fu. I do agree that the MCU needs more Asian characters but the clamping down on a guy and saying "this guy needs to be Asian because he's a martial artist" that I've seen I think is just shooting yourself in the foot in that regard.

Several people have rebutted these points multiple times over.

Danny Rand being white is problematic because it's just another one in a long line of Mighty Whitey stories where asian people and their culture play second banana for the sake of some white guy's journey (and no, it's not just about him being the best martial artist, it's about him being the narrative focus).

A number of asian american activists have also scoffed at the idea that an asian martial artist would be stereotypical because ultimately martial arts are part of east asian cultures and many of them are fine with embracing it as long as it's done properly. Asian Danny Rand wouldn't automatically be a stereotype if he was a well-written and interesting character. If anything asian people are more annoyed that they only get the martial arts roles traditionally, not that they get them at all, and that most of the time they're not the ones actually telling the stories with those martial artists.

Most of the time the people making this particular argument are non-asian people thinking they know asian issues better than asian people do, and automatically assuming that something is a stereotype and that having a white guy is preferable to avoid it. It might be well-meaning but it's completely misinformed.

edited 19th Mar '18 4:52:56 PM by Draghinazzo

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83155: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:57:31 PM

I would have been fine with a black or hispanic Iron Fist or having Shiang-Chi replace him, for the record.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83156: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:00:57 PM

But not Asian, because God forbid an Asian-American guy be a martial artist.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83157: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:01:19 PM

Having now watched Brooklyn 99, I'd have cast Jason Mantzoukas (Pimento) as Danny Rand.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83158: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:02:08 PM

I'm okay with anything as long as he still feels like an outsider in Kun Lun.

What about his Pulp Fiction predecessor though?

edited 19th Mar '18 4:02:44 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#83159: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:09:15 PM

Latino Danny Rand would've been neat. Could probably fit in a joke about loving Dragon Ball in there too.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83160: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:11:24 PM

Danny Rand is the real El Hermano.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83161: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:14:00 PM

Jason Mantzoukas literally has a background in backpacking across continents, knows some martial arts, and is a really endearing actor who could do the duality of "cute childish danny/creepy PTSD Danny" really well.

He's actually not south asian (did not know this) he's Greek. (I'm now fancasting him as Bob from Bobs burgers too now)

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#83162: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:15:55 PM

I mostly know him as the guy from Parks and Recreation. He could handle douchey without being too repulsive really well.

edited 19th Mar '18 4:18:31 PM by AlleyOop

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#83163: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:23:34 PM

[up][up][up][up] Yeah, please. Yeah. That would be wonderful

Watch me destroying my country
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#83164: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:29:45 PM

Maximum Derek.

Edit- I do think he's rather old to be Danny, but would be an amusingly inspired choice and in full Sincerity Mode, would like to see him in the MCU. Honestly, I must readily see him as belonging him to whatever species (?) that the Collector and the Grandmaster are. Either that, or he's someone else I could see as Hercules.

Regarding the Danny discussion, I'm on board with the Asian-American Iron Fist idea but I could also see him as being white (or some other ancestry) but humorously self-aware and vaguely embarrassed by the Mighty Whitey thing, rather than clueless, like Danny in the Netflix show. Also, in connection with the topic of "actors you'd like to see in the MCU", I wonder why it didn't occur to anyone to cast Justin Hartley.

edited 19th Mar '18 4:37:31 PM by Hodor2

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#83165: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:49:31 PM

[up] Asian American that is constantly making jokes about his Status as a mysthical asian martial artists.

The best of both worlds

Watch me destroying my country
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#83166: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:50:45 PM

Huh. Not sure why I didn't consider that. That would be great too.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83167: Mar 19th 2018 at 4:53:10 PM

My deal is, if you want Danny to be Asian you might as well not use the character to begin with and just go for Shang-Chi.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83168: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:02:17 PM

No, it would not be a step forward

Given how badly Asian representation is in the MCU, it would be a step forward. It is just that bad.

We've already talked about the Ancient One

They should've damned the Chinese market and gone with a Tibetan actress but Disney wanted that Chinese market even though they still would've made a fortune even without it. And hell, I'd even throw in they should've cast an Asian Doctor Strange because the film already has a vague shade of Mighty Whitey to it.

If you're saying "they should have had Shiang-Chi instead of IF in the Defenders because IF turned out to be a knock-off Arrow in execution" then yeah, sure, but I'm sick of people implying that Danny Rand's storyline would have been better if he was Asian or that it's somehow problematic because he's white. Danny Rand is a rich businessman who learns magic martial arts. Making him Asian would just be enforcing All Asians Know Kung Fu. I do agree that the MCU needs more Asian characters but the clamping down on a guy and saying "this guy needs to be Asian because he's a martial artist" that I've seen I think is just shooting yourself in the foot in that regard.

And here is the part that makes no goddamned sense. First off, never once did I mention Shang-Chi or make any reference to Arrow. I've never even watched Arrow. Second off, it is incredibly problematic that he's white because again, Mighty Whitey. He's an outdated stereotype of white people being the saviors of perceived "lesser" races. Third, if his only trait was knowing martial arts, it'd be bad. But it isn't. It's never been. Making him Asian would not somehow make him racist because he knows martial arts, making his only character trait him knowing martial arts would. That entire criticism is just a bullshit excuse to defend an outdated character built on racist tropes and is a strawman built on an opinion nobody ever had. People didn't want him to be Asian because he knew martial arts. People wanted him to be Asian to remove the Mighty Whitey aspect of the character.

Haven't watched all of the Netflix shows, but from the ones I've seen I'd hardly call them yellow peril. Just seemed like they're doing the whole secret conspiracy thing because Arrow did it with the League of Shadows.

The Hand are an organization who are first shown in Daredevil Season 2 staffed almost exclusively with Japanese ninjas, have no depth to their goals other than to be evil, and are fought by a team of good white people. That's textbook yellow peril.

edited 19th Mar '18 5:03:33 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83169: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:08:21 PM

Just to put something out there:

The problem with Mighty Whitey is that they have to make white people do everything in a setting.

It is not that white people are doing things that are traditionally Asian. That's not inherently problematic, and neither would it be for any possible combination of ethnic groups occupying places 'X' and 'Y' there.

Having a white american person go and learn magic or martial arts or magic martial arts and come back to New York to fight crime is fine if you also have good representation of ethnic groups proportionate to the setting and aren't just using it as an excuse to have white people do everything.

Which is why my problem is that people are going "Danny Rand should be Asian" as opposed to "one of the defenders should be Asian" - the latter I can agree with. Saying "there aren't enough Asian heroes in the MCU" - I can agree with that. I can't agree with saying that it's problematic that it's Danny Rand in particular that is the problem.

edited 19th Mar '18 5:13:15 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#83170: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:16:58 PM

Which is why my problem is that people are going "Danny Rand should be Asian" as opposed to "one of the defenders should be Asian" - the latter I can agree with. Saying "there aren't enough Asian heroes in the MCU" - I can agree with that. I can't agree with saying that it's problematic that it's Danny Rand in particular that is the problem.

I get that you mean well. But you’re ignoring a lot of context. Could Shang-Chi have worked as a Defender? Yeah, sure. But that wasn’t our decision. The fandom and activists framed the conversation around Iron Fist because that was the show Marvel decided to do. So yeah, it is Danny Rand that’s the problem, because Iron Fist was the last show to cast/film, so it was the last/only chance for representation in the planned Marvel Netflix shows.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#83171: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:20:49 PM

What Danny Rand needs to be to be is American, not white. He could be a rich Asian-American kid who knows jack shit about kung fu. before being dropped in K'un-Lun. The primary difference between Danny and Shang-Chi isn't their ethnicity, it's their nationalities and backgrounds.

As for the Mandarin: Honestly, just go read something like Mandarin: Story of my Life. The Mandarin's character consists of: He's a neo-reactionary who wants to hurl the world back into feudalism, the crux of his conflict with Iron Man is that he's a medievalist whilst Stark is a futurist. Nothing about that is particularly Yellow Peril, in fact he's often something of a subversion of one Yellow Peril stereotype in particular: despite cloaking himself in an aura of asian mysticism all his "magic" is just highly advanced science. He's not a sorcerer, he's a highly intelligent scientist playing up the idea he is one. The Mandarin is the Chinese equivalent of a Neo-Confederate or a Neo-Nazi, and comics have been pointing this out since the seventies and the trend has never stopped.

He is also by far the meatiest antagonist role you could ever have for Iron Man, he's the Magnificent Bastard The Chessmaster Worthy Opponent to Stark, a cold and steely mastermind whose power is enough to level nations, Tony's equal in every way, who Stark only bests the skin of his teeth. By making him white you're not only comitting erasure you're depriving Asian actors of the meatiest role in the film other than the main character.

Brief note on the etymology of Mandarin: It's not exactly a Portuguese word. It's a corruption of the Malay word "Menteri".

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#83172: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:27:25 PM

[up] Yep, the Mandarin is pretty cool.

And yeah, Asian American Danny would have being a good idea, with the fact that he is actually a asian stereotype being used as a character trait ("Not all asians know martial arts, but I do, and that is what matters" ...or something to lampshade and defy the stereotype)

Watch me destroying my country
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83173: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:29:58 PM

Seriously who doesn't want to be the cool villain?

Killmonger is practically immortal now.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#83174: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:31:28 PM

My deal is, if you want Danny to be Asian you might as well not use the character to begin with and just go for Shang-Chi.

...What, because one Asian guy is basically the same as another? Even when one is a rich American and the other is a foreigner and son of a crime lord?

Danny Rand and Shang-Chi are completely different characters, and suggesting that merely making Danny Asian-American renders him effectively interchangeable with Shang-Chi - or even superfluous because "we already have one" - is frankly offensive.

Having a white american person go and learn magic or martial arts or magic martial arts and come back to New York to fight crime is fine if you also have good representation of ethnic groups proportionate to the setting and aren't just using it as an excuse to have white people do everything.

Let's have a white American person go to Asia, master Asian martial arts and earn a magical title that none of the locals were apparently worthy of, and spend the rest of the story fighting evil and thoroughly dehumanized Yellow Peril stereotypes. Nothing problematic there whatsoever.

And as we all know, the MCU has such a great history of representation with Asian ethnic groups that all potential concerns are rendered superfluous.

Here's a question that I can't help but wonder if you'll ignore: have you ever read any of the articles and thinkpieces that launched #AAIronFist? I'm not talking about coverage of the campaign from external sources - I'm talking about the ideas that started it all. Because these tired talking points that you're trotting out were all addressed by them literally years ago. In particular the nominal concerns about the "All Asians Know Kung Fu" trope that you seem to have backed away from.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#83175: Mar 19th 2018 at 5:31:46 PM

[up][up] Well, some villains arent mean to be cool. It depends all of the setting

-realize that is a joking post-

Oh

[up] Yeah, a asian Danny and Shang-chi are really different, saying that they can be swapped is like saying that you can swap War Machine and Falcon

edited 19th Mar '18 5:36:57 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country

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