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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83126: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:17:19 PM

I don't think we should scrape to oblige the Chinese government either quite frankly, since they're the reason the Ancient One wasn't Tibetian.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83127: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:21:36 PM

[up]And Black Panther just broke a billion despite not performing particularly well there.

I feel the best way to use the "true" Mandarin if they ever do want to revisit that plot thread, is have him as the villain of a Shang-Chi movie. That way you get a cast of heroic Chinese characters fighting the Mandarin, so it doesn't just come off like a nationalistic power fantasy.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83128: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:22:40 PM

I find it interesting how the Mandarin twist was accepted by a lot of people because he's offensive but the Ancient One being changed got a ton of backlash.

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#83129: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:28:37 PM

Pretty sure Black Panther hit a billion before it premiered there. And its also worth noting that piracy is not exactly uncommon in China. Why pay 40 kuai to see something once in a theater when you can pay half that for a bootleg off the street?

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83130: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:29:51 PM

[up]x2 Well, you have two crowds of people being offended by the Ancient One change. One, it was a morally cowardly move intended to essentially erase a Tibetian character because it would be offensive to a government trying to eradicate Tibetian culture.

Secondly, it involved an Asian character being replaced by a white character and you get the general outcry from that.

I must admit though, sometimes it's depressing when I wonder if the internet would have been satisfied by the AO being Chinese because that would have been the worst of all possible choices in my mind.

edited 19th Mar '18 1:30:11 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83131: Mar 19th 2018 at 1:33:35 PM

I'm not too familiar with China and Tibet's situation so I can't comment on that.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83132: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:21:07 PM

China denies Tibetan sovereignty and illegally annexed and occupied it. Hence why I also hate how a Chinese actor is playing Wong.

I love how people are acting like having the comic book Mandarin would be some sort of step forward for Asian portrayal in the MCU and are throwing around terms like whitewashing and erasure. He's always been a barely acceptable Fu Manchu knock-off. All Iron Man 3 did was call that shit out. The Mandarin in that movie is what he always was in the comics in a meta sense - just a foreign boogeyman.

Not always. He hasn't been for decades. He's iffy, yes, but here's the thing: they could always have improved on it. Like seriously, I've seen several tropers offer better versions of the Mandarin twist that all involve still keeping him Asian and modernizing him. Ya know, like the comics did which Shane Black completely ignored.

And frankly it would be a step forward given how Asian representation in the MCU has consistently been awful bar Agents of SHIELD having two Asian characters. We have the Swinton One, Danny "complete douchebag" Rand, and the Yellow Peril villains from the Netflix shows.

And frankly, they made M'baku work in Black Panther, so there's literally no excuse. At all. Erasing a character's ethnicity to avoid controversy should never be the answer.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:22:11 PM by AdricDePsycho

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Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83133: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:28:04 PM

[up]Pretty sure comics Wong is Chinese so I'm not sure why he's offensive.

Agreed on M'Baku though. If they can take a character literally called Man-Ape and make him an Ensemble Dark Horse there's really no excuse for not even trying with The Mandarin.

Edit: Hell, you could do the Mandarin twist in a sense while still keeping him Asian. Make the Ten Rings a terror group funded by the business man Eugene Khan. He uses them to scare people and whip them into a frenzy so they're more willing to buy weapons/armor/tech from his company.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:31:28 PM by Kostya

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83134: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:29:12 PM

The whole idea of "what if Bin Laden was just a puppet for some white dude in a business suit." Here's the problem with that, HE WASN'T!!

Yeah he was a puppet of the CIA instead

The trutherism implication of the fake Mandarin is unfortunate because it rang true in one regard

The US created our own boogeyman

Difference being in the movie it's an active ruse and in real life the government just forgot about arming a dangerous extremist to point at the Russians and ignored any warning signs that he was pointing back at us

Not sure how you fix that in terms of a movie.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:29:53 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83135: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:29:23 PM

[up][up]

I thought he was Tibetan in the comics?

edited 19th Mar '18 2:29:50 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83136: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:32:20 PM

[up]Was he? If so I retract my statement.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#83137: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:32:20 PM

Only case I’ve seen where a problematic character was whitewashed and everyone seemed fine with it was Doctor Poison in Wonder Woman (Japanese in the comics, German in the film and played by a Spanish actress.) Though I’m not sure if that’s because it genuinely was deemed alright to avoid Yellow Peril, or if it just slipped under the radar because of how obscure the character is.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83138: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:33:34 PM

Slipped under the radar. I've seen people criticize it but given the general lack of knowledge of the character's existence, it hasn't been as vocal compared to the Mandarin.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#83139: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:34:53 PM

Was she a case of Yellow Peril? I didn't think her being Japanese was a major part of the character. I'd course I don't know much about her.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#83140: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:41:53 PM

Ah, reading the character’s bio, it seems she’s only Japanese in the Rebirth version of the last few years. The previous versions were German or Russian. So not quite an example.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:42:45 PM by Tuckerscreator

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#83141: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:48:19 PM

According to her Wikipedia page, she was at least Japanese in the Golden Age.

...Maybe you can justify it by saying that it'd be weird to have a Japanese scientist allied with the Germans during World War I, but that might be a flimsy justification. Like everyone's said, she's a little known character, so there wasn't much outcry.

Something else that occurred to me is that unlike Mandarin and the Ancient One, she's ultimately a minor character, so there wouldn't be much time to develop her so that she wouldn't risk falling into Yellow Peril. I'm not saying that it was okay, mind you, but I don't think that option would have been there.

Oh God! Natural light!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#83142: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:55:17 PM

And frankly it would be a step forward given how Asian representation in the MCU has consistently been awful bar Agents of SHIELD having two Asian characters.

I really don't buy that. People keep coming up with these supposed fixes for the Mandarin and I don't see how any of them are less iffy just because he now wears a business suit instead of Chinese robes.

People keep making the comparison to M'Baku, but the main reason M'Baku worked so well was the movie has an almost entirely black cast, and he was made far more sympathetic than his comic counterpart. If it'd been a story about a white guy and his mostly-white supporting cast fighting a big Scary Black Man who dresses up like an ape and hoots and hollers like one too, you can be damn sure that would not have gone over nearly as well.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:57:38 PM by comicwriter

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#83143: Mar 19th 2018 at 2:59:58 PM

" but here's the thing: they could always have improved on it. Like seriously, I've seen several tropers offer better versions of the Mandarin twist that all involve still keeping him Asian and modernizing him. Ya know, like the comics did which Shane Black completely ignored. "

Cane he being improved, we have a lot of talk about how some villians like Egg Fuu are to tainted to be save and yet another Fu machu isnt?

is kindalike a rock and the hard place in asian representation: ether you are some weird oriental warlord or you get erase.

And of Dr poison, I feel she was Adapted, kinda like Light in Death note adaptation...just waaaaay better.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#83144: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:06:13 PM

M'baku being done so well really surprised me. I was certain that he was a poisoned well.

Making him an anti-hero certainly helps, as well as putting him in a narrative where culture is a focus, so his religion feels more nuanced.

Perhaps the true Manderin could work, however you'd HAVE to have an East Asian director for that flick, otherwise you're playing with fire.

I was tempted a while back to suggest the Manderin as a Black Panther sequel villain. Tie into neo colonialism like what's happening with Chinese enterprises having so many infrastructure projects in the Republic of Congo. Remove the yellow peril angle by ensuring its not white heroes that's battling him.

edited 19th Mar '18 3:23:06 PM by Whowho

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#83145: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:11:07 PM

[up][up]

In that same conversation it was brought up that there were a myriad of ways to improve upon the character in some way but there was absolutely no way they could've improved upon Egg Fu at all.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83146: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:42:53 PM

So we can't have a villain who happens to be Asian then basically?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83147: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:45:15 PM

"And frankly it would be a step forward given how Asian representation in the MCU has consistently been awful bar Agents of SHIELD having two Asian characters. We have the Swinton One, Danny "complete douchebag" Rand, and the Yellow Peril villains from the Netflix shows."

No, it would not be a step forward, but as for your other problems -

1. We've already talked about the Ancient One,

2.If you're saying "they should have had Shiang-Chi instead of IF in the Defenders because IF turned out to be a knock-off Arrow in execution" then yeah, sure, but I'm sick of people implying that Danny Rand's storyline would have been better if he was Asian or that it's somehow problematic because he's white. Danny Rand is a rich businessman who learns magic martial arts. Making him Asian would just be enforcing All Asians Know Kung Fu. I do agree that the MCU needs more Asian characters but the clamping down on a guy and saying "this guy needs to be Asian because he's a martial artist" that I've seen I think is just shooting yourself in the foot in that regard.

3. Haven't watched all of the Netflix shows, but from the ones I've seen I'd hardly call them yellow peril. Just seemed like they're doing the whole secret conspiracy thing because Arrow did it with the League of Shadows.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#83148: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:46:00 PM

> So we can't have a villain who happens to be Asian then basically?

Umm no just don't make them caricature

edited 19th Mar '18 3:46:27 PM by Ultimatum

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83149: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:47:20 PM

[up] That doesn't sound hard to do then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#83150: Mar 19th 2018 at 3:49:29 PM

Indeed it;s not

Of course,if your name DC and and you have a love of Eggs you might wanna avoid naming your villain Egg Fu cos you know that's offensive.

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