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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#82701: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:18:03 PM

Exactly, I'm perplexed at the constant demonization the protagonists are getting from others these days.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#82702: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:26:42 PM

It does occur that Natasha also withheld from Tony who killed his parents (As she was with Cap when he learned it). I guess it's more accepted from her coz lying is her shtick.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82703: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:29:09 PM

She's also not Tony's friend to the same extent that Cap apparently was.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#82704: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:29:50 PM

Which it is transforme into idiocy, really "why did you run" is probably one of the dumbest thing I have hear, I give a past for his father but it was bad.

That is actually a philosophy that some people hold: only a guilty man would ever run from police because an innocent man has nothing to fear. It's wrong, but a lot of people believe it.

Sure but to jump to "Im going to kill you" is....yeah, also he didnt since to care about the mess Zemo did, that should me more eye raising worthy.

He wasn't trying to kill Bucky for running. He was trying to kill Bucky for murdering his father. The bit about running was just Confirmation Bias in action. "As I already believe with 100% confidence that you are guilty, the fact that you tried to flee from the law can only be because you are guilty. Point proven."

This is exactly why court trials require an unbiased jury. People who've already formed an opinion are reluctant to accept interpretations of the evidence that conflict with it.

Im taking when Zemo free him when they capture the first time, that is something it cant be let out and yet almost everyone did.

I dont mean they have to think he is inocent, but that MAYBE there is something else here....

In the scenario where T'Chaka was murdered by the Winter Soldier, it would be entirely likely that other people were working with the Winter Soldier. He's not a serial killer, he's a brainwashed Hydra assassin.

Zemo's breakout doesn't look suspicious in that scenario because of course the secret conspiracy that sent Bucky to kill T'Chaka would have other people who could break him out. Evil organizations usually have no trouble finding mooks.

See, I disagree there. Even if Bucky had been guilty, he would STILL have been a Po W who was tortured for decades and deserves better than just getting gunned down to make the world feel more comfortable. The stated goal should have been from the get go "catch him alive and then we see what we can do".

They're going after the deadliest assassin in human history, a man who could easily massacre them all without breaking a sweat, a man who not even Captain America has ever beaten, and you want them to softball it?

You might as well order them to kill themselves now and save Bucky the trouble.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:31:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#82705: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:30:43 PM

Yeah, Steve the Death Eater has become quite a thing since Civil War. The thing is when people say "it is all Tony's fault" they are usually joking. But there is a sub-set of fans which are set on painting Steve as the most terrible human being possible, and I don't quite get it. I mean, the very point of Civil War is that both sides are kind of in the right from their point of view. It is one of the most mature exploration of a conflict I have seen for a long time on screen.

[up] They have Vision. They could have easily captured Bucky with minimal risk if they had even tried.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:40:54 PM by Swanpride

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#82706: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:36:38 PM

Yeah, uh, kinda leaning towards Ron the Death Eater there.

Oh so Steve didn’t make a bullshit attempt at an apology in which he largely ignored how he’d fucked up and made it all about himself?

If I were going Ron the Death Eater, I’d call Steve a close minded bigot for his “there’s only one God” line in the Avengers or call him an anti-intellectual Ludite for his nonsense about how stopping wars before they start is bad.

I’ve known people like Steve Rogers in real life. They’re the worst kind of people not because they’re outright malicious but because they never think how their actions will hurt other people.

The only times Cap's really been in the wrong was being too energetic about getting Bucky back in Civil War but A. he was right even if he went about it in the wrong way and B. the detail he withheld from Tony was that Bucky killed his parents while being mind controlled, and it was Tony who went ballistic even though he logically should know that Bucky had zero control over his actions.

You forgot attempting to fraudulently enlist in the army (for which he should have been in prison), dumping info on every SHIELD agent and thus leaving them vulnerable to enemy agents in WS, the mission in Lagos which according to a tie-in comic wasn’t even to stop Crossbones but to chase another Bucky lead, attacking Tony on Wanda’s word despite having zero reason to trust her and recruiting her to the Avengers. Yeah, there’s a whole bunch of ways Steve has been wrong going all the way back to his first film, whether the narrative acknowledges it or not.

And Tony went ballistic due to the stress of the last few days, the manner in which this news was broken to him and the fact that Rogers lied to him.

The accords, as per the original comic, are a sensible idea handled just pathetically by Tony constantly bowing and scraping to the government. While yes, Scarlet Witch made a mistake, it should be noted that that government had let its premier secret service be run by frikkin Nazis for the better part of 50 years.
The United Nations is not a government.

[up] I have been reading a lot of reviews and think pieces of Civil War and I can assure you the "it's all Tony's fault" line of thinking is NOT a joke. There is an entire faction of fans who blame Tony and Tony alone for how things went down. Even the film makers get in on it saying that Tony's siding with the accords show him as emotionally compromised without Pepper. Steve the death eater is nowhere near as common as Tony the Nazi.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82707: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:38:19 PM

[up] The united nation is a bunch of governments, a some of them with a lot less ethics than the US quite frankly.

"You forgot attempting to fraudulently enlist in the army (for which he should have been in prison)"

Now I know you're just screwing with us. This was the second world war, loads of people were trying to enlist in the army underage. If you weren't it would be practically unpatriotic.

Of Steve's other stuff? Some of it is questionable, sure. But it's the kind of questionable stuff that crops up in every superhero movie a little bit. I don't think any of those moments are really that serious.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:43:30 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#82708: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:47:35 PM

"You forgot attempting to fraudulently enlist in the army (for which he should have been in prison)"

So should Tony for flying an unlicensed maned aircraft in public airspace with no consideration for local laws or traffic control. Or that time he destroyed 2 USAF Aircrafts. Or violated a no fly zone.

Or detonated a reactor in a large city.

I mean, if we're going to be petty about this :-p

edited 16th Mar '18 12:52:00 PM by Ghilz

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82709: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:52:46 PM

[up][up][up]

No, this is still pretty big Ron the Death Eater, which I'd suggest you stop because a good deal of this is over-exaggerated nonsense.

[up][up]

I mean hell, Steve was trying to fight the Nazis, why would this even be a bad thing in the first place?

edited 16th Mar '18 12:53:34 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#82710: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:52:52 PM

I mean, if you're going to bring up Iron Man 1 against him, Tony did a lot more than just flying an unmanned aircraft over Gulmira. I've half-jokingly called the Civil War-era Avengers "Violence Tourists" to describe their habit of unlawfully crossing into other countries for the purpose of inflicting violence on folks within those sovereign borders, but Tony was the original Violence Tourist.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#82711: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:52:52 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] The "not Steve friendly" tag at AO 3 is way, waaaaaaay more common than even the "Team Steve" tag.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:53:40 PM by Swanpride

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#82712: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:53:59 PM

The united nation is a bunch of governments, a some of them with a lot less ethics than the US quite frankly.
That’s where checks and balances come in.

"You forgot attempting to fraudulently enlist in the army (for which he should have been in prison)" Now I know you're just screwing with us. This was the second world war, loads of people were trying to enlist in the army underage. If you weren't it would be practically unpatriotic.

That’s your defense for this? Everyone was doing it and poor little Steve just wanted to fit in?

Steve’s health conditions alone would have made him a disaster waiting to happen for any unit he served with. You wanna know the easiest way to die in war? It isn’t from enemy fire but from saving a useless team mate.

Of Steve's other stuff? Some of it is questionable, sure. But it's the kind of questionable stuff that crops up in every superhero movie a little bit. I don't think any of those moments are really that serious.
How many superhero movies have the heroes recruiting neo Nazis and telling the nations of the world to fuck off when said nations demand their sovereign rights be respected? Note the last superhero movie that did something close to the latter was Superman IV: The Quest For Peace.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82713: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:55:39 PM

"telling the nations of the world to fuck off when said nations demand their sovereign rights be respected?"

Almost every superhero does this to a greater or smaller extent in some fashion.

Oh, and Scarlet Witch is a former Neo-Nazi. Like, hardly what you're gonna put on your instagram profile, but she's reformed and is making an effort to atone.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:57:04 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#82714: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:56:41 PM

[up][up] It's not like Steve was hiding any of his health conditions. He was honest about all of them, the only thing he did was trying under different names. This might have tied up the time of some doctors, but the whole "don't lie on your enlistment forms" sign was more about people making up reasons why they shouldn't be subjected to the draft, not about people making up a name.

Also, the UN is a well-meaning body overall because it encourages communications between the different countries, but it is hardly a democratic or above all reproach entity. How could it be considering how many members are dictatorships.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:57:51 PM by Swanpride

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#82715: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:58:05 PM

I mean, if you're going to bring up Iron Man 1 against him, Tony did a lot more than just flying an unmanned aircraft over Gulmira. I've half-jokingly called the Civil War-era Avengers "Violence Tourists" to describe their habit of unlawfully crossing into other countries for the purpose of inflicting violence on folks within those sovereign borders, but Tony was the original Violence Tourist.

It's a manned aircraft. I was also thinking of his test earlier with the Prototype armor over the city he lives in.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82716: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:58:36 PM

Look, windleopard, it’s fine if you don’t like Steve. You’re entitled to your opinion. But saying a throw away line in Avengers makes him a religious bigot, or that being skeptical of hyper surveillance makes him a Luddite, isn’t a good faith analysis of his characterization.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#82717: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:00:16 PM

@Swanpride- Yeah. I mean's that's literally where 4F and other classifications came in. People who were drafted or wanted to enlist when to draft offices and then were turned down for various measures of unfitness. And for that matter, it was definitely a thing for people who wanted to serve but met a disqualification standard lying and serving anyway. Not sure how much in World War II, since there was probably more of a bureaucracy to catch it, but plenty of people who were underage served in previous wars.

But yes, windleopard, pretty much all of your points are Ron the Death Eater to a particularly extreme level.

edited 16th Mar '18 1:01:22 PM by Hodor2

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#82718: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:01:32 PM

No, this is still pretty big Ron the Death Eater, which I'd suggest you stop because a good deal of this is over-exaggerated nonsense.

How about pointing out how it’s inaccurate instead of accusing me of going Ron the Death Eater.

I mean hell, Steve was trying to fight the Nazis, why would this even be a bad thing in the first place?
Cause he’s likely to get his stupid ass, along with any other unfortunate schmuck stuck with him, killed due to how useless he is without the serum? I hate Nazis as much as any decent human being but I’m not stupid enough to think this means I’ll be any useful against them.

The "not Steve friendly" tag at AO 3 is way, waaaaaaay more common than even the "Team Steve" tag.
Not from what I’ve seen. Not to mention how much bashing Tony got on tumblr and this was before CW.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#82719: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:03:13 PM

Look, windleopard, it’s fine if you don’t like Steve. You’re entitled to your opinion. But saying a throw away line in Avengers makes him a religious bigot, or that being skeptical of hyper surveillance makes him a Luddite, isn’t a good faith analysis of his characterization.

Yeah, um, read what I said again

If I were going Ron the Death Eater, I’d call Steve a close minded bigot for his “there’s only one God” line in the Avengers or call him an anti-intellectual Ludite for his nonsense about how stopping wars before they start is bad.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82720: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:03:50 PM

Ok Windleopard.

If you handle shitting on Steve, and I continue to handle (jokingly) shitting on Tony, we'll corner the market for mocking MCU characters.

Now is the time when we join forces to crush our enemies to dust. Are you with me?

One Strip! One Strip!
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82721: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:04:36 PM

Those were quick examples. The rest of your analysis is similarly disingenuous.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#82722: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:06:50 PM

I for one am thoroughly amused by windleopard's analysis. Please continue :-P

Oh, I forgot another one of Tony's totally nitpicky but jailable offenses from Iron Man 1; Leaving the country and re-entering without visiting customs.

edited 16th Mar '18 1:07:56 PM by Ghilz

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#82723: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:07:20 PM

[up][up][up]I want in on this. Assign me a character to demonize and I'll get right to it.

edited 16th Mar '18 1:07:26 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#82724: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:07:55 PM

Please tell me you're joking...

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#82725: Mar 16th 2018 at 1:08:11 PM

[up][up] Hawkeye. Go.


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