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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82176: Mar 12th 2018 at 7:57:33 PM

I would like some expansion on whether she was aware the whole time or whether for her she was gone like a minute

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#82177: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:03:20 PM

Let us not forget the Thor of Thor 1 through Avengers through Dark World would've never done something as ballsy as pre-betraying Loki before Loki and then abandoning to writhe alone on a nowhere planet because 'f*** it my brother can't be trusted anymore'.

edited 12th Mar '18 8:03:58 PM by Tuckerscreator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82178: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:04:34 PM

I dunno. I'd think that Thor, by the end of Dark World at least, probably would. That movie is the one where he was all "y'know what, I'm tired of being betrayed. You're going to betray me again, probably, and I'll just deal with it."

Granted, in regards to dealing with enemies he kind of became a bro somewhere between movies.

edited 12th Mar '18 8:07:25 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#82179: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:05:43 PM

Dark World Thor would have just beaten Loki to death.

My various fanfics.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82180: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:05:46 PM

Thor's rough arc has been something like "Oh I just can't WAIT to be king no never mind I'm really not ready yet okay now I don't really want to be king but the job needs doing so okay here we OW FUCK MY EYE"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82181: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:06:42 PM

[up][up][up]Disagree. Thor kinda tries to plan around Loki, but he also does trust Loki during the mission.

Theeeeeen he found out Loki faked his own death. That’s what did it.

[up][up]Oh, come on. “Mother wouldn’t have wanted us to fight” yeah, THAT guy would totally have beaten Loki to death, sure.

edited 12th Mar '18 8:08:37 PM by wisewillow

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#82183: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:07:24 PM

Yeah Thor is already expecting Loki worst in dark world, he just manage to catch Loki off guard.

Also since we see Odin dark past, this kinda change the whole "take loki as a baby" isnt?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82184: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:08:54 PM

It does change a lot of how we see Odin as a person.

His chessmaster additional reasons for picking up Loki aside, that scene now definitely as a "no, I've done it again. But maybe I can salvage some manner of good from this" vibe to it. His weariness about war in general in the first movie has a new light to it.

He wants his sons to be better because he's lived the alternative, and he knows it's awful and only leads to awful.

Then he end up having to banish and/or condemn both of them anyway, because when it comes right down to it he might not be a very good parent.

edited 12th Mar '18 8:15:23 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#82185: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:10:49 PM

I mean, not the Thor at the start of the movie, though he also says "When you betray me, I'll kill you." But as we see when Thor discovers that Loki faked his own death, oh, yeah, Murder was his Plan A.

My various fanfics.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82186: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:11:46 PM

They did the scene from the comics where the throws his hammer and psychs Loki out by waiting for it to squash his head. I'd been waiting for that moment. It made me happy.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82187: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:14:33 PM

The odds of Thor killing Loki are the same as the odds of me sprouting wings. Both Thor and Loki know this.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#82188: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:45:20 PM

[up]He dosent need to kill loki, know expecting to him to chiken out at the end.

Also, I think Odin take loki as bargain against the frost gigant and love him afterwield, in a way Loki WAS right about him.

Also is hear how the movie goes "the hammer isnt important" when it was the VERY damn symbol of ruleship from asgard and being worthy.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#82189: Mar 12th 2018 at 8:56:39 PM

He still wanted to see if he could save Loki until Thor Ragnarok, at which point he gave up, but still would have rather sequestered himself away from Loki and left him to his devices as long as it didn't intersect with his domain, than to have killed or hurt him seriously.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82190: Mar 12th 2018 at 9:00:53 PM

Mjolnir being a symbol of Asgard's might as seen in the secret hidden mural really does add to why it had to be destroyed. For more reasons than Thor learning to believe in himself

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#82191: Mar 12th 2018 at 9:06:12 PM

[up][up]Yeah, I will said that in dark world he dosent see him as his dear brother and as the wild card he is, in ragnarok he just know who to deal whim better.

[up]Yeah but that never really show up, which is a shame.

If anything it feel the theme of the movie could be better have the time to properly setting up, there is a sense of "and suddenly they were bad all along!" but I cant blame the director for that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#82192: Mar 12th 2018 at 9:25:50 PM

I'd say the message of Ragnarok could be summed up as: don't get hung up on the things you've lost (especially material goods and symbols of status) because the things that really matter, that make you who you are, are inside you, and no one can take them away.

This is most evident with Thor himself. He loses his father, his hammer, his freedom, his eye, his status as firstborn/heir to the throne, and even his luscious golden locks. But despite all that, he still shows himself to be the hero and leader his people need. This is made most explicit when Odin tells him that he doesn't need his hammer, because the power (of lightning) was inside him the whole time.

We see it with the other characters, too. Valkyrie lost everyone close to her and was driven to despair, even losing her own identity working for the Grandmaster, where she was known only by a number. But when she discovers that Hela, the evil she swore to fight, is back and attacking Asgard, she suits up for battle and shows that she's still a Valkyrie.

Then you have Bruce Banner, who's spent the last two years deprived of his own body and consciousness by the Hulk. But when the day needs saving and he chooses to become the Hulk once more (knowing he might never be able to turn back), his good heart shines through the monstrous transformation and makes the Hulk into a hero.

In contrast, the villains of the movie are all obsessed with holding onto external manifestations of their perceived greatness, masking how pitiful they are deep down.

Loki, at the beginning of the movie, has literally turned himself into someone else so he can have the throne and all the praise and luxury that he feels he should have had all along. But Loki is unable to truly act like a king, and he's quickly exposed for who he really is.

Hela wants to return herself and Asgard to greatness, but the only standards she uses to judge greatness are having a vault full of treasures, lavish paintings in your honor, and an army of obedient slaves. She's so obsessed with material things, her power is utterly dependent on a physical object. Thor without his hammer is still Thor; Hela without Asgard is nothing.

And, of course, you have the Grandmaster, the most shallow and superficial tyrant of them all. He spends most of the movie ruling with unchecked and unquestioned power, but when he's stripped of all his henchmen and gadgets, he's proven to be a pathetic huckster making a feeble attempt to talk his way out of a lynching.

I see Asgard's destruction as a continuation of this theme, rather than a repudiation of Asgard as a concept. They come right out and say, "Asgard is a people, not a place." They let the space island they lived on blow up because they didn't need it; they'll still be the Kingdom of Asgard whether they're all crammed into a spaceship or squatting somewhere on Earth.

edited 12th Mar '18 9:26:53 PM by RavenWilder

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#82193: Mar 12th 2018 at 9:27:28 PM

It is worth noting that Age of Ultron sets up a very different concept for Ragnarok where it is as though a meteor is approaching and everyone has descended into Apocalypse Anarchy. Waititi taking over the film transformed it from "Ragnarok is an impending horrifying disaster" to "Ragnarok is shocking but quick and ultimately necessary".

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#82194: Mar 12th 2018 at 9:32:43 PM

"his eye, his status as firstborn/heir to the throne,"

to be fiar he didnt really care about those, is eyes is more a efect to said he is wiser after being put into hardship, kinda like Odin did(or if you go by norse mythos, he become wiser) while his claim never matter to him.

[up]Yeah, I will said that kinda like Civil war, the less you imagine a sequel and more as is own thing, the better.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#82195: Mar 12th 2018 at 10:23:49 PM

So uh, I finally saw Ragnarok.

I enjoyed it a lot more than the first Thor. It was genuinely pretty funny and had some of the best jokes of any Marvel film, a lot of very spontaneous improv lines that really improved the script and let the actors play off each other. It had some very impressive imagery as well, like with Valkyrie's flashback, Thor's fight with Sultur in the beginning of the film, anything Hela does, etc.

I'm a bit hesitant to broach this subject again since we kinda moved past it, but hopefully me bringing up doesn't start a shitstorm:

I do think that Waititi was pretty conscious of the imperialism/colonialism themes he was putting into the film. There's multiple lines that suggest it was something he was preoccupied with ("prisoners with jobs"), and I do think that it is neat, and it does add something interesting to the film.

I would however, agree with the notion that even with this intent, the film doesn't spend that much time with the idea or explore it all that much. By extension I would also agree that the film is more preoccupied with being a Planet Hulk adaptation in a lot of ways, and this made for a very fun film but it does mean that other parts of it had to be minimized by necessity.

I don't see it as being super horrible or overly to the film's detriment, but I do think it would have improved the film noticeably if they did spend more time on it. There are a lot of pretty fair and well-founded criticisms that can be made about the film's handling of the imperialism angle (some of which have already been mentioned here), not the least of which that there's not much in terms of the perspective of the people who were actually conquered by Asgard. We saw a little of this in the previous films, of course, but this is the one where it would have been quite important.

This does not, of course, negate the enjoyment that various minority activists may have gotten from seeing the film broach the subject, even if it didn't do so in the best way it could have. I think we're all pretty much in agreement here that Black Panther was a lot more ambitious in this regard and really explored the theme of colonialism in a much more thorough and emotionally powerful way. There's plenty of room for varying opinions here and reasonable disagreement. The main issue here is just treading carefully when we discuss these things and be conscientious of how we go about making any criticisms, which really was the main reason the argument got started in the first place.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#82196: Mar 12th 2018 at 10:33:27 PM

While I don't think reading Ragnarok as a colonialism metaphor is invalid, I don't think it's so strongly supported by the text, either. You could make just as strong a case, if not stronger, for The Lord of the Rings as a colonialism metaphor (particularly "The Scouring of the Shire").

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82197: Mar 12th 2018 at 10:35:15 PM

Like I said its there but it needs improvement.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82199: Mar 12th 2018 at 10:39:49 PM

...holy fuck that actually kinda works.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#82200: Mar 12th 2018 at 10:41:59 PM

The scene of T'challa rebuking his father in the afterlife for leaving Erik orphaned in America did bring to mind Odin and Thor in Ragnarok learning his father's sins and having to deal with them as ruler.

Granted, Odin did way worse, but still.


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