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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82101: Mar 12th 2018 at 5:51:38 PM

Saying anyone is reading too much into anything is just a strawman to dismiss any criticism or analysis.

edited 12th Mar '18 5:51:47 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82102: Mar 12th 2018 at 5:52:52 PM

Not true. It's saying "there isn't enough evidence to back this up as a thematic core of 'X'"

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82103: Mar 12th 2018 at 5:54:14 PM

No, it's just used to dismiss any analysis. You can't read too deeply into anything, especially something where, as many people have pointed out, there is more than just subtext to it. Fucking hell, Film Crit Hulk outright said it was blatant text, not subtext.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#82104: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:01:24 PM

I'm not sure if this was already known but apparently Peter will have his iron spider arms in Infinity War.

Also that Thanos is absolutely soul-piercing.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:02:58 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#82105: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:13:47 PM

Thor Ragnarok is in big part about colonialism. The movie involves Asgard papering over their sordid past where they conquered the nine realms and burying it so deep almost no one alive in the present day knows anything about it. And then one of the architects of their conquering days comes back and wants to restart it, and the source of her power is literally the world that did the conquering. The only way to continue is to utterly destroy Asgard, thus obliterating the foundation of colonialism their empire was built on and saving those who abhor that history.

And you look at the world today, and the great colonial powers, who gained their wealth by conquering and stripping other nations, pretend that those days are over and gone, even though those days were necessary for them to exist as they do today.

Yes, Thor Ragnarok is a comedy, but comedy can absolutely be true, and in some ways, it can be easier to get a point across than with a drama.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:15:29 PM by Zendervai

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82106: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:18:30 PM

It just feels outright insulting to keep saying that this film is somehow not a colonialist or imperialist story when numerous people keep saying it is. And frankly, I'm outright offended at it being labelled a "white man's perspective" when the director is Maori.

It's no different than the people who keep arguing that Black Panther isn't political and it reeks of looking down on the film because it's incredibly comedic in nature. Could the metaphor have been done better? Yeah, I kind of agree. But the dismissive attitude towards it and then having the gall to label a Maori man's film a "white perspective" is bordering on the same bullshit people keep saying to dismiss Black Panther.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82107: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:25:53 PM

I think when there is only a single spaceship left of your entire culture, you are refugees and not colonizers

Super strength aside, the remaining Asgardians are not going to be negotiating with anything like a position of strength

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82108: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:28:02 PM

Yes. At the end of the film, they're refugees now. They don't have a whole lot of power to deal with anything.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82109: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:28:57 PM

The movie ends with Thanos about to wreck their shit so

Not doing any flag planting anytime soon

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82110: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:29:44 PM

That’s kinda poetic justice... they conquered nine realms but now lost their own because their hidden past came back and led to their destruction.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82111: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:30:23 PM

Yeah things are not looking good for them.

Especially since Hulk & Thor were like straight up ejected from the ship.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#82112: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:35:32 PM

I wonder if the Asgardian refugees will end up settling in Wakanda after landing on Earth

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82113: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:36:32 PM

They'll probably settle into the midwestern US or something like in the comics.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82114: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:38:13 PM

I'm not sure if this was already known but apparently Peter will have his iron spider arms in Infinity War.

Yeah, they're in the merch for the film.

It just feels outright insulting to keep saying that this film is somehow not a colonialist or imperialist story when numerous people keep saying it is. And frankly, I'm outright offended at it being labelled a "white man's perspective" when the director is Maori.

That's not an insult. It's how criticism works.

The question is whether the movie adequately reflects the themes of Imperialism, or uses them as a backdrop while is primarily focuses on other things, citing elements within the actual narrative of the movie as well as a comparable example within the MCU that more strongly explores the same content.

The director, outside of the actual body of his work, proclaiming that he totally meant to have a strong, developed theme about imperialism, doesn't mean that the fact the the movie doesn't actually adequately display that should be overlooked. Directors say lots of things. The director of Fan4stic said his movie was meant to be an artistic marvel that was above most superhero fans' thinking.

Likewise, the director being Maori doesn't mean everything he writes inherently more sage about the concept of Imperialism than anything else, regardless of the actual content of those creations. Black Panther isn't great at exploring race relations and imperialism just because the director is black, but also because said director knows what he's doing.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:52:03 PM by KnownUnknown

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82115: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:38:49 PM

[up][up] A field in Norway seems more apropos.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#82116: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:45:35 PM

Yeah I think the issue with the imperalism is that first of all, it come out of them nowhere, second Odin, the chief architect of all that imperalism manage to go away in a peacfull matter leaving his mess to his two son to clean up.

Second is Hela personality resemble less that of a colonizer and more a warlord for a fantasy series, I compared her to shao khan in how cartoonish she is about conquering everything.

And finally blowing up asgard as solution.....really? it come more as some sort of revenge fantasy that a good way to deal with imperalism.

So yeah...I can see why people are bother a lot.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82117: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:50:00 PM

I will concede that Odin gets off a bit too lightly for his role in things.

I will not concede that Hela is somehow too cartoony for a colonialist. I've read quite a bit about colonialism and imperialism, them being cartoonish is outright fitting because the good lot of them were incredibly cartoonish in numerous ways.

And blowing up Asgard as the solution...really what? The realm that was responsible for such acts is ultimately destroyed. It's poetic justice.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82118: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:51:47 PM

The issue isn't that she's cartoony. It's that she's flat and the imperialism angle is undeveloped. She's not imperialist as a means of exploring what it means to be an imperialist. She's imperialist because it's easy characterization for villainy that doesn't require a lot of excess plot to explain. She shows up, reveals Odin used to be a warlord, and that's all set up for Thor to prove he's better than her. That's about it.

On the subject of comparing it to Black Panther: it's of course ridiculous to claim Black Panther isn't political because it very methodically and intrinsically explores national and race relations with every single characters' characterization, with every single arc being based around how those subjects effect the characters' perspective of the world and every challenge the characters face being a result of those struggles influencing their or other peoples' actions.

But at the same time, it's makes little more sense to claim Ragnarok is more political than it is, because ultimately it's a popcorn flick that uses imperialism as a largely lip-service backstory for its Generic Doomsday Villain and skives off that plot entirely to have Thor and Hulk fistfight in the middle of nowhere. Thor Ragnarok is significantly more interested in being fun than it is in having a message behind it.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:54:36 PM by KnownUnknown

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#82119: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:53:17 PM

yeah,but that was someone's home,people who had nothing to do with Ordin's conquests have lost everything

I wouldn't even call it poetic justice,they didn't deserve to lose their homeland,the guy that was ultimately responsible is long gone

[up][up]

edited 12th Mar '18 6:53:50 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#82120: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:53:40 PM

Sounds like a lot of people are hating on Thor: Ragnarok so they can prop up Black Panther as an example of it done better.

Why not just say that both are great? Why compare the two just because they have similar themes?

edited 12th Mar '18 6:54:19 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82121: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:53:50 PM

She & ergo the imperialism angle needs a lot of work.

Its just not used as well as it should have been.

[up][up] Yeah it was all so long ago that most people don't even know what happened.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:54:27 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#82122: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:54:48 PM

[up][up]

That's indeed what it is. Because apparently a Maori man's film is a "white person's perspective" on imperialism.

Saying that it's not as political as people are saying is the exact same excuse people used to shit on Black Panther. Just saying.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82123: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:55:00 PM

Minority writers are in no way immune to having Westernized approaches to situations and ideologies when it comes to the things they write. As a minority myself who has spent much of his life reading, watching and experiencing the works of many, many minority writers, I can attest to the fact that many writers - especially movie and comic writers - default to the typical, normalized "white" way of thinking when it comes to characterization, plot and resolution, because that's what they're trained to believe is good and thus regurgitate.

It's a disappointing reality of the way colonialism has affected the modern world we live in, but it is reality.

[up][up] The conversation about Ragnarok started well before anyone mentioned Black Panther, so no, that's not it.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:59:06 PM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82124: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:55:10 PM

[up][up][up][up]

They damn well better not.

I like both movies, and BP doesn't need to stand on another films corpse to rise high. It's standing tall all on its own as far as I'm concerned.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:55:34 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#82125: Mar 12th 2018 at 6:58:36 PM

[up][up]I’ll agree that that may be the case, but when you can find a substantial number of articles, by indigenous authors, analyzing the imperialism themes in this film with depth and approval, it’s likely time to concede that this is not one of those times.

edited 12th Mar '18 6:58:50 PM by wisewillow


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