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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81701: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:36:41 AM

The main point of the Bechdel test is not to be described extremely accurately.

It is to show that despite being incredibly easy, it often does not passes because of a lack of female characters, OR a lack of exposure, OR the fact that their entire character revolves around a male character.

The point is that every MCU movie passes the "reverse-Bechdel", ie two male characters talking together about something other than women.

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#81702: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:41:28 AM

My understanding is that as long as at some point in the conversation, the subject being discussed isn't about a man, it counts. Like if two women who are coworkers who are talking about their work happen to bring up a male coworker a few minutes into the conversation, it still passes because there was a portion of their conversation that wasn't about a man. Basically, the idea seems to be that their conversation can't solely be about a man.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81703: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:48:13 AM

[up] Yes, but in any event, Alison Bechdel's objective was not to create an arbitrary way to quantify how "feminist" something was. It was to show how something so utterly simple for male characters often did not happen for female ones, and to illustrate the gender imbalance in the media.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#81704: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:51:00 AM

Kinda feels like there's not really a lot of qualification that needs to happen on the third point, because a lot of movies don't even pass on the first two criteria.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81705: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:53:30 AM

Just because the origin of the rule and its complete text.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#81706: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:55:34 AM

[up][up]Yeah, definitely. The only time I've ever seriously heard a discussion about what counts for the third point is for a show with a large amount of female characters. (I remember the Supergirl fandom had a huge argument about whether a conversation between four female characters counted in one episode because a man was brought up once.) For the most part, discussion about the third point is irrelevant anyway because either a) the episode/movie doesn't even pass the first two points or b) there are so many conversations between female characters that there's bound to be at least one conversation that doesn't bring up a man at all.

edited 7th Mar '18 8:56:03 AM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81707: Mar 7th 2018 at 9:51:13 AM

I interpret the "not brining up a man" more as "not bringing up the love interest or the lead of the movie".

In terms of the MCU:

Movies which fail on all degrees (not having more than one female character): The Incredible Hulk

Movies which fail on first base (having more female characters but they don't talk to each other):

The First Avenger (That one has an excuse, though, due to the setting) The Avengers (Which has three female characters and none of them even interact with each other....and that is not counting the random waitress). The Winter Soldier (Which actually has a number of badass female characters but again, only interaction with each other) Age of Ultron Thor Ragnarök (I think...there might be a brief exchange between Hela and Valkyrie) Spider-Man: Homecoming

Movies which fail on the second base (having female character but the conversation is about the lead/their love live:

Ironman (there is one brief conversation between Pepper and Christine, but they are bitching to each other about Tony) Ironman 2 (which comes close to passing, but since all conversations between Pepper and Natasha are Tony or company related.....) Ant-man (Cassie has a conversation with her mother, but since it is about Scott....)

Movies which pass: Thor (since Jane and Darcy have multiple work-related conversations...Selvig is a distraction, though) Thor TDW (there is at least a brief period in which the conversation between Jane and Darcy is not directly Thor related) Ironman 3 (Pepper and Maya have one conversation about the morality in science which counts in my book) Both Got G movies (Thanks to Gamora's exchanges with Nebula) Black Panther (I think...there has to be an exchange when the three woman are together, right?)

So, no, not the best track record. But it also shows that it is only useful for showing a trend and not how well a movie actually handles the female characters, because some of the ones which fail actually do better than some of the ones which pass (*cough* Thor *cough*)

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81708: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:23:41 AM

It mostly shows that passing the test is easier if you actually have prominent female characters. Not much more to read into it. As long as you satisfy yourself with token female characters in the main casts, then you'll end up having to look for super short and forgettable scenes with forgettable NPC in order to try and pass the test.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#81709: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:34:23 AM

I kinda wish Ant-Man had simply said that the nature of the heist would automatically make Cross suspect an inside job, so Hope and Hank had to make sure they were seen somewhere else as the heist happened, giving them an alibi.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81710: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:38:02 AM

I just wish they'd let the movie be Wasp instead of Ant-Man.

Q. In this story about fathers and their relationships with their daughters, what would be the best way to marginalize the daughters and keep them out of the action so they don't get estrogen all over my epic bromance?

A. Don't. Just...don't. Everything you just said. Don't do that. There is not a correct way to do that, because the thing you're trying to do is already wrong.

edited 7th Mar '18 11:38:49 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81711: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:40:01 AM

I wish that they had picked another director from the get go. It was obvious that Wright wasn't interested in the Wasp, which is why I give Reed a pass, he did what was possible in the short time frame.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81712: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:42:40 AM

Like. I can't even fathom why Wright thought making the movie be about fathers and their daughters was a good idea in the first place when the only meaningful thing he had to say on the subject was, "Ugh. Women, amirite?"

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#81713: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:45:47 AM

So what's the least important movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? I'm gonna vote Spider-Man Homecoming. It's the movie that was an add in to the franchise, not a building block. it's also part of a ruse to launch another attempt at a Sony universe using marvel studio's goodwill with the audience.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81714: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:47:17 AM

I mean, I didn't really care since I thought it was obvious that they were building up these threads for the second film and because the skillset of the mission obviously lent itself more to a heist-man than someone - who, while more experienced with the equipment, was not as experienced with the situation of actually performing a robbery.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81715: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:47:28 AM

[up][up][up] I actually don't think that this was the angle....I got the impression that the movie was originally about mentor/mentee relationships, with Hope and Cassie being just side players, and when Wright left the project, it was shifted to the father/daughter angle. but with the limited time, they could hardly rewrote the whole script.

edited 7th Mar '18 11:52:18 AM by Swanpride

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81716: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:49:56 AM

Without Scott it would hardly be about daughters. Just daughter.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81717: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:54:29 AM

The least important movie is easily The Incredible Hulk. You can just skip it and you won't miss anything important.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81718: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:57:07 AM

Here's the thing about the heist angle: how good of a heister is Scott, even? In service of making him a bland, generic Likable White Protagonist Dude, the movie forgot to actually develop that aspect to the character.

So far as the movie tells us, Scott's only ever performed one heist and he went to jail for it. He has a 0-1 W/L record for heisting. However, his inherent Paul Ruddness makes him the perfect heist mastermind for shoving Hope into a pit and taking over as the hero.

edited 7th Mar '18 11:59:26 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81719: Mar 7th 2018 at 11:59:13 AM

Without knowing more about his backstory that led to him heisting from the company, which sounded like an electronic heist from what I remember??, him breaking into the Pym mansion showed a lot of diverse expertise in breaking into a place and stealing some shit.

Some weird esoteric knowledge too.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81720: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:02:07 PM

Breaking into his house was the test.

He proved his skills to him.

edited 7th Mar '18 12:02:26 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81721: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:02:14 PM

But it's never justified.

Marvel doesn't want him to be their Han Solo. The movie spends a lot of time defending him and being like, "Scott's not just some two-bit thug. He has a good heart. And he only stole that one time. And it was for a good reason. He's a good guy who would never stoop so low as to do crime for personal gain and, really, he hasn't done that much crime anyways!"

But then when Hope comes up, it's like, "Oh, no, Hope can't do it because we need a two-bit thug like Scott."

EDIT: And so far as proving his skills goes, like, part of a heist is not getting caught. One might argue that's the most important part of the heist. And Hank totally knew Scott was breaking in. So that's 0-2.

edited 7th Mar '18 12:04:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81722: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:07:00 PM

Okay so looking it up there was a tie in comic called Scott Lang: Small Time that revealed that he used to have quite a habit stealing from criminals to return what they stole to their victims. He cut it out when he got married but when he whistleblew on Vistacorp stealing from their customers, he got fired.

So he decided to get back into the game and heist the stolen money back to the customers. He may have gotten away with it (he would have been the likeliest suspect in any investigation really) but then he decided to top it off by breaking into the CEO's mansion, stealing his shit and driving his car into the pool.

That's about when the police showed up. So. A mostly good win record and mostly altruistic goals. Mostly.

I don't remember how much of this was in the movie. I think I remember the car/pool thing being brought up. I think by the Baskin Robbins guy or by Hank. They don't really go into it overly much.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#81723: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:08:16 PM

I didn't get the impression Scott had only burgled once before, just there was only one time he got caught.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81724: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:11:20 PM

So he only got caught cause he unecessarily took it too far that one time.

See he got the skillz.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81725: Mar 7th 2018 at 12:11:43 PM

[up][up][up][up] Also, he gets caught during the actual heist and during the break-in at the Avengers compound so in terms of robberies that are explicitly mentioned in the movie

0-4?

edited 7th Mar '18 12:11:55 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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