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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81676: Mar 7th 2018 at 4:55:08 AM

Had Wright not boggarted Wasp just to have her killed off, she may have been in Avengers

Food for thought

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#81677: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:17:04 AM

Yeah, Edgar Wright's Ant-Man would've been a worse movie than what we got.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81678: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:20:04 AM

And the one we got would have been a better movie if Marvel had been willing to throw out more of Wright's script.

They thought they could salvage it. They were mistaken.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#81679: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:23:33 AM

Oh well. I liked what we got.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81680: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:23:35 AM

I still like the movie in general although I think some things could have been better. After seeing the trailer for the sequel I think they should have just done Ant-Man and the Wasp from the very beginning. At the very least Hope should have suited up too near the end of the last movie.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81681: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:28:43 AM

The mere existence of Hope indicates that the first movie should have been called "The Wasp", and the second "The Wasp and Ant-Man".

Ant-Man's main issue is that the character's reason for existing entirely boils down to having Douglas' character refuse to give the suit to the infinitely more competent Hope, which is a bit patronizing - and the worst part is that they justified it by stuffing her equally competent mother into the fridge. It's a sexist one-two punch.

edited 7th Mar '18 5:29:09 AM by Julep

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#81682: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:33:44 AM

Eh, I've always thought the movie had a pretty good reason for not being about Wasp. It was a heist movie. Hope knows diddly about heists, and the whole reason they got Scott was because they needed a heist guy.

edited 7th Mar '18 5:34:21 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81683: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:39:23 AM

The "heist guy" could have advised the much more cool-headed and technologically-literate Hope to pull the heist. It would be refreshing actually to have the guy be Mission Control for the Action Girl.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81684: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:47:10 AM

Does it take longer to teach someone to heist or to teach them to use shrinking technology?

Apparently the former according to Old Man Hank

I'd have said put them both in the suit. Heists can use multiple people and the training montage could have been two ways

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81685: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:47:58 AM

I think the film did a good job showing why Pym was reluctant to give her the suit. However if I had written the movie I would have had him change his mind at some point and get the two of them to work together.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81686: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:50:23 AM

Also it's a shame that Jan's "death" is a fridge because it was a pretty heroic sacrifice

But because it happens so Hank will be sad and forbid Hope from stuff it becomes all about him instead of Janet saving the world

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81687: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:52:36 AM

Janet's death is such a blatant case of Never Found the Body that I think calling it a fridge is silly.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81688: Mar 7th 2018 at 5:54:16 AM

It's in the fridge unless proven otherwise

Like the last piece of pizza

Also fridging is broader than just death and in comic book terms there's not much of a difference between dying and being resurrected years later versus being stuck in a micro verse and escaping years later. It takes you off the board either way

edited 7th Mar '18 5:57:40 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81689: Mar 7th 2018 at 6:05:39 AM

Does it count as fridging if it happens in a backstory?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81690: Mar 7th 2018 at 6:11:38 AM

Probably

Although Wasp is a special case since this is an adaptation. Wright took a character with decades of continuity of her own including leading the Avengers now and again and 'killed' her off in the backstory for Hank's development

edited 7th Mar '18 6:11:56 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81691: Mar 7th 2018 at 6:11:40 AM

I'd call it Death by Origin Story if Jan's "death" had affected Scott in any way, but it didn't. It existed purely for Hank's Manpain and to justify his subsequent marginalization of Hope.

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Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#81692: Mar 7th 2018 at 6:59:04 AM

I'll only be okay with it if we get a subplot in a future movie that's about Hope rescuing her mom.

(Worth noting here that one of my major pet peeves in fiction is this bizarre idea a lot of male writers have - even ones who are otherwise pretty good with female characters - that women don't interact with each other in any significant way. In the films thus far I think it's only GOTG 2 and Black Panther that haven't disappointed me there.)

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81693: Mar 7th 2018 at 7:07:28 AM

Considering The Wasp is going to become a thing soon, it's highly unlikely we'll see her mom.

As for what you said about female characters, well, you need more than one female character for that to begin with. It's not a surprise it didn't happen in Avengers. Black Panther and Guardians 2 are about the only MCU movies starring two female characters or more in significant roles; in the rest, The Smurfette Principle is here in full force, except for Civil War...where the two women are in opposite teams (so that each team respects the aforementioned principle) and stuck in the middle of ten guys.

edited 7th Mar '18 7:07:59 AM by Julep

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81694: Mar 7th 2018 at 7:44:22 AM

That's literally why the Bechdel Test is a thing. Some have pointed out that passing the Bechdel Test does not make a work feminist, but that's not actually the point of the Bechdel Test. It's supposed to be ridiculously easy to pass. That so many works fail this incredibly easy test is the point.

To pass the test, all a work has to do is

  1. Include at least two female characters.
  2. Who have a conversation with each other at some point.
  3. That isn't about a man.

If Scarlet Witch and Black Widow go out for coffee and discuss the latest sports event, the movie passes. If Pepper Potts meets Jane Foster and proposes a technological partnership between their enterprises, the movie passes. If Gamora and Nebula ever spend two minutes talking about how screwed up their childhood was, the movie passes (Good on you, Guardians 2!).

It's so easy. So, so easy. But very few movies ever pass it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81695: Mar 7th 2018 at 7:52:58 AM

What movies do pass it? Guardians and Black Panther are the only one that immediately come to mind. I think Homecoming does too but I can't remember specifically.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#81696: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:02:27 AM

wrong topic

whoops

edited 7th Mar '18 8:05:43 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81697: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:04:12 AM

Homecoming has, what, two female characters that interact? Liz and Michelle? I'm not even sure they talk to each other specifically in the movie.

Still, it has a higher chance to pass than most MCU movies, which is saying something.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#81698: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:13:22 AM

What does "about a man" mean, though? Would he have to be the main subject of the conversation? I believe Nebula and Gamora bring up Thanos in their conversation (it's kind of unavoidable), but the main focus of the dialogue is how it affected them and their relationship with each other.

Oh God! Natural light!
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81699: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:14:24 AM

Nebula and Gamora also have a conversation about their respective childhoods, no? Sure, the looming figure of Thanos is here but he might not be specifically mentioned, which allows to pass the test.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81700: Mar 7th 2018 at 8:31:53 AM

I also wonder about conversations that mention men when they're not the main subject. If two women are discussing work and a male coworker is mentioned at some point does that conversation not count? The man wasn't the main focus of the conversation.

What counts as a conversation anyway? Does it have to last for a certain amount of time? If one woman is saying everything and getting nothing but one word responses does that count?

edited 7th Mar '18 8:32:15 AM by Kostya


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