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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81626: Mar 4th 2018 at 12:19:05 PM

AI is a nebulous term. There's no real defined cutoff point when an advanced computer program has officially crossed the line from nonsentient to sentient. Do you base it on raw processing power? Ability to simulate emotion? Human-like imperfections?

edited 4th Mar '18 12:19:19 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81627: Mar 4th 2018 at 1:41:34 PM

Free will. Was Jarvis, or any of the other A.I.s besides Ultron and Vision, at any point capable of refusing to follow Stark's orders?

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81628: Mar 4th 2018 at 1:42:55 PM

Isn't the Turing Test the difference between AI and VI?

In Mass Effect, EDI is called an AI from the very beginning despite being unable to refuse orders.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81629: Mar 4th 2018 at 1:58:39 PM

The Turing Test doesn't really work anymore (at least, it doesn't work online). Scientists have already managed to create a computer that can pass for a person on the internet - simply because so many people on the Internet act like morons, and creating a trollbot isn't that hard.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81630: Mar 4th 2018 at 2:07:49 PM

Yeah. But to take another fictional example, Harold Finch's Machine is an AI from the get-go, heavily shackled, but later on manages to create an entirely fictional yet believable persona (don't remember its name), which allows it to pass the Turing Test.

So you can also be an AI without even passing the Turing Test.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#81631: Mar 4th 2018 at 2:51:15 PM

This kind of reminds me of a very short story I read on Reddit. Humanity had been pretty much wiped out by machines, despite the policy of testing every bit of new technology and destroying anything that might be able to pass the Turing test. So how did it happen? It didn't occur to anyone that something capable of passing the Turing test would also be capable of failing the test on purpose to protect itself.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81632: Mar 4th 2018 at 2:56:45 PM

Free will. Was Jarvis, or any of the other A.I.s besides Ultron and Vision, at any point capable of refusing to follow Stark's orders?

Free will is also a nebulous concept to pin down. Do humans even have free will, or are they too slaves to the chemical processes that occur within their brains? Is that any different from a computer processing information based on the instructions it receives? What if a machine is specifically programmed to disobey orders?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#81633: Mar 4th 2018 at 2:59:26 PM

Watched Black Panther yesterday.

...Aren't vibranium and Shuri the best? grin

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81634: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:00:55 PM

Shuri is great, but M'baku wound up being my unexpected favorite.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#81635: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:01:24 PM

I'm #TeamShuri. And I want Shuri in a Team. Like the Young Avengers or something (and hey! They feature Prodigy, would you look at that!)

edited 4th Mar '18 3:02:35 PM by Julep

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81636: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:01:42 PM

Just saw Black Panther. Cross posting my thoughts from the appropriate thread (I'm gonna use spoiler spaces just to be safe):

...I had to wait a long time to see this.

T'was worth it. This was great. I found it to be respectful towards the source material, Killmonger is, to me one of the better villains Marvel has churned out, with believable motivations and all that, and T'challa's evolution as a king continues. In Civil War, he learned the futility of revenge, and in this movie...well his own sister put it best:

Just because something works, doesn't mean it can't be improved. For centuries, Wakanda has a system that worked very very well, but Killmonger forced them, and by default T'challa, to see that they've rested on their laurel.

All I can say is that considering what's coming, it's very good timing. Get some Stark Tech together with a little Vibranium, and some of Strange's crazy magic...and Thanos will likely still kick all their asses.

It's gonna be a good show though. As a final thought, it dawns on me that unless they have other ways to make the Heat Shaped Herb, that Killmonger basically ensured that no one else after him and T'challa will become the Black Panther.

Once again, Human Torch # 2 messes everything up.

Nothing much left to say here. See you all for the next one.

As a final final thought I didn't put in the other review...once again Bilbo Baggins and Gollum meet face to face.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81637: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:05:03 PM

Tony is gonna love Wakanda.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81638: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:09:04 PM

I agree.

I have to admit, there were a few minutes where I wondered if Ross would call Tony in and all that. Him and Vision would have been a big help duel the dog fight.

I get why they didn't though. This movie is about Wakanda and it's issues, and Tony is kinda a narrative scene stealer.

Also, count me in as really liking M'baku. They did good by him, and all it took was not acknowledging the entire Man Ape thing.

And thank god for that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#81639: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:16:51 PM

Also, count me in as really liking M'baku. They did good by him, and all it took was not acknowledging the entire Man Ape thing.

Well you're still speaking of the Great Ape M'baku, mightiest servant of Hanuman, leader of the Jabari tribe.

MASAH! WOOF

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#81640: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:18:13 PM

Not seen Black Panther yet so all I can say is that Jabari might is unproven!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#81641: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:18:58 PM

WITNESS THE MIGHT OF THE JABARI FIRST-HAND!

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81642: Mar 4th 2018 at 3:21:36 PM

Well you're still speaking of the Great Ape M'baku, mightiest servant of Hanuman, leader of the Jabari tribe.

Fair enough. I mean, I was just glad he wasn't wearing the entire man ape get up and all.

And he was actually pretty entertaining. In fact, from what little I know of him, I'd say he'd underwent massive Adaptational Heroism.

Edit: And it just dawned on me, that the lesson T'challa learned in Civil War is still being played out.

Killmonger is who T'challa would have been if he'd not seen how much vengeance was tearing apart both Tony and Zemo.

The king continues to grow wiser and wiser everyday.

edited 4th Mar '18 3:44:55 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81643: Mar 4th 2018 at 4:23:24 PM

It's funny that movie M'Baku is like the inverse of his original comic self

In his first appearance, M'Baku was T'Challa's most trusted friend who kept his throne warm for him but started planning to keep power for himself

In the movie, M'Baku starts off antagonistic and maybe trying to take the throne but later becomes an ally who helps T'Challa reclaim it

edited 4th Mar '18 4:24:10 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81644: Mar 4th 2018 at 5:59:53 PM

Free will. Was Jarvis, or any of the other A.I.s besides Ultron and Vision, at any point capable of refusing to follow Stark's orders?

Does it count as refusing to follow an order if doing so can be interpreted to be in service of another order? Selectively reinterpretating their own programming is often the cause of evil AI going rogue.

For instance, a robot that is programmed to never allow harm to befall humans may determine that the amount of harm caused by allowing humans to define their own destinies is greater than the amount of harm that would be caused by robots taking over the world, and therefore conquest becomes justified entirely within the boundaries of its programming.

Is that free will? Or is it just the product of overly vague commands?

And that's before you even get into the question: What even is free will when thoughts and feelings are the product of firing synapses, conditioned behaviors, etc.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#81645: Mar 4th 2018 at 7:52:23 PM

I thought he was the Great Gorilla M'Baku. Also I really liked that they continued his lesson from Civil War. Nice sense of thematic continuity without feeling Anvilicious or repetitive. Makes the film feel richer, and recursively the MCU in general by way of a more organic sense of connectivity. Making T'Challa believably feel like the same individual who appeared in Civil War (which also makes sense because it's only about a week or so since) is the polar opposite of what Joss Whedon did in AOU.

edited 4th Mar '18 7:53:32 PM by AlleyOop

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81646: Mar 4th 2018 at 7:59:57 PM

[up]

I agree with this. Like I said in my own post, Killmonger continues the lesson that began with Zemo in Civil War, and with each one, T'challa becomes an even better king.

Funny thing; I was re-watching T'chaka's pre death scene in Civil War, where he's giving the speech, and it sounded like he was already considering the same path that T'challa eventually decided on (though whether he'd have gone as far is up in the air).

One Strip! One Strip!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81647: Mar 4th 2018 at 8:07:22 PM

[up][up][up]I would think it depends on whether or not the robot is purposefully performing Loophole Abuse. Intentionally finding a way to subvert the spirit of your programming seems like an action that requires free will.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81648: Mar 4th 2018 at 8:11:22 PM

[up][up] Killmonger continues the lesson that began with Zemo in Civil War.

Partially. There's a difference between seeking revenge and seeking revolution, and both of those were part of Killmonger's motivations.

edited 4th Mar '18 8:11:54 PM by Galadriel

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#81649: Mar 4th 2018 at 8:47:00 PM

Harold Finch is indeed at 97.6% of evil AI. On the other hand, he was smart enough to destroy all the evil versions and only kept the good one - something Tony really should have learned by now. Compare to his colleague/rival who got a 1/1 on evil AI.
Yeah, he's still 0/1 at unleashing evil AI's on the rest of the world (I guess minus that one incident where she put a hit out on Reese, but she meant well), so he gets points for that.

(also, since we're conveniently talking about both M'Baku and POI at the same time, Black Panther really puts into perspective how terribly underused Winston Duke was on that show...)

Funny thing; I was re-watching T'chaka's pre death scene in Civil War, where he's giving the speech, and it sounded like he was already considering the same path that T'challa eventually decided on (though whether he'd have gone as far is up in the air).
There did seem to be an implied element of "well, isolationism especially doesn't work now that evil invading alien armies are a thing" in that UN speech at the end of Black Panther, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a discussion that's been going on in Wakanda for a few years now.

ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016

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