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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81351: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:55:18 PM

We knew violence against Jews was ramping up starting in the late 1930s. We turned away a ship full of Jewish kids at the US border/harbor.

I think it would be a powerful acknowledgment that they share a time period, but had vastly different experiences. And that America doesn’t always get it right/get it right very fast.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#81352: Feb 28th 2018 at 3:35:20 PM

I thought they avoided using Nazi imagery with Hydra because Germany and some other countries have laws against using those symbols outside of a historical/educational context, and The First Avenger diverges enough from real history that it might have been barred from those markets.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81353: Feb 28th 2018 at 3:44:59 PM

[up] The law is not as strict as Americans tend to think, but then, what matters is what they think so it might be a factor. It is allowed to use it in art, and a movie is considered art as long as it isn't propaganda. And Captain America is hardly pro-Nazi propaganda.

edited 28th Feb '18 3:45:49 PM by Swanpride

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#81354: Feb 28th 2018 at 5:06:35 PM

[up]This. That No-Swastika rule only applies to games, because they aren’t considers art. The German versions of the Indian Jones movies or Inglorious Bastarads have everything: Nazis, swastikas, Hitler… Yes even “Captain Eagleman vs The Nazi Brain Eaters from Outer Space” can show swastikas and Alien Hitler. Afterall, art is in the eye of the beholder. grin

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#81355: Feb 28th 2018 at 6:33:42 PM

Stan Lee is battling pneumonia

edited 28th Feb '18 6:34:57 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81356: Feb 28th 2018 at 6:36:49 PM

Okay maybe I'm reading too much into things but I have an issue with saying Cap not explicitly fighting Nazis is problematic. Yes the Nazis are evil and did bad shit but it's not like they're the only antagonistic force among the Axis. If he had been fighting Japan or something it wouldn't necessarily imply they're the true enemy and the Nazis are just a side villain. It just means he focused on a specific group and targeted them.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81357: Feb 28th 2018 at 7:30:28 PM

Your comparison isn't entirely accurate. If he was in the Pacific Theater not fighting the Japanese, it would be just as problematic as him being in the European Theater not fighting Nazis.

Which part of WWII he's at matters.

edited 28th Feb '18 7:30:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81358: Feb 28th 2018 at 7:34:41 PM

How so? Transporting him from one theater to another shouldn't be too huge of an ordeal. Even if you count the commandos that's only a handful of people you'd need to move. I don't see why him fighting a specific group means that group is the biggest threat. Logically he'd fight where he's needed most.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81360: Feb 28th 2018 at 7:59:22 PM

For anyone afraid of clicking the video: don't worry. It's basically a rebuttal of a lot of the assertions regarding Black Panther and how it supposedly promotes a black ethnocentrist, isolationist and anti-immigration state.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#81361: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:12:27 PM

Yeah it's by Shaun, he's a big leftist You Tuber who debunks a lot of alt right bullshit. He's good.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#81362: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:22:26 PM

Anyone who tries to argue that is revealing themselves for a complete idiot who didn't see a lick of the actual movie, considering the film's big Aesop is literally the opposite and T'Challa directly calls his father out on all of that.

edited 28th Feb '18 8:25:25 PM by AlleyOop

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81363: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:24:45 PM

Tellingly, Shaun calls out that some of the people whose statements he's rebutting didn't actually see the film proper (he knows because they said so) or completely failed to mention anything about what the film actually says by the end.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#81364: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:29:23 PM

One of T'Challa's last lines in the film is "Great men build bridges and foolish ones build borders."

My various fanfics.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81365: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:32:07 PM

Almost. “But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another as if we were one single tribe.”

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#81366: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:53:57 PM

Hell, I haven't seen the movie, but I thought the point was that T'challa wanted to at least start the process of opening Wakanda to the rest of the world, and other people didn't.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81367: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:55:45 PM

[up] Sort of. Spoilers for the film: T'Challa starts out the film as essentially wanting to preserve the status quo, mostly because he's still unsure of himself and what kind of king he wants to be. However by the end of the movie he realizes that the isolationism of Wakanda is wrong and opens the country up to the rest of the world.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#81368: Feb 28th 2018 at 8:59:20 PM

I think he's on the fence - Nakia wants to help the rest of the world, W'Kabi doesn't (though wouldn't mind going out and forcibly "cleaning things up"), and T'Challa seems kind of split, preferring to just stay isolated. The events of the movie push him over to Nakia's view of things, but it's perfectly possible that he might have come around to that point of view anyway.

edited 28th Feb '18 9:22:23 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#81369: Feb 28th 2018 at 9:20:22 PM

Also comparing Wakanda's isolationism to Build-The-Wall America falls apart the instant one notes that Wakanda refused to get involved in any country outside of itself while America has military and/or legal fingers in every continent on the planet.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81370: Feb 28th 2018 at 10:22:28 PM

And economic. A part of the reason for why there's so much Mexican immigration to the US is NAFTA and US corn subsidies making it much harder for Mexican farmers to earn a living. (Short version: US gives massive subsidies to corn farmers, making their corn very cheap, allowing them to dump it on other countries, and making small farmers in other countries unable to earn enough to support their families because they're being undersold by the US.)

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#81371: Feb 28th 2018 at 11:05:36 PM

Hydra is a Nazi organization or at the very least they started that way until after World War II and they work for the Nazis.

Fighting Hydra during WW II is the same as fighting Nazis because they are Nazis working for Hitler.

I mean it's not like everyone in the German army held the same beliefs as Hitler but they fought for him too. It wouldn't be controversial to call the German army a Nazi army.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#81372: Mar 1st 2018 at 5:22:08 AM

MCU Hydra predates the Nazis but the specific group Cap fights are a Nazi affiliate of them. Modern day Hydra has dropped the white supremacy aspects for the most part.

edited 1st Mar '18 5:22:17 AM by Kostya

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#81373: Mar 1st 2018 at 6:13:02 AM

HYDRA didn't fight for the Nazis, the movie itself points that out. Red Skull uses them for his own ends, and then discards them. By about a third of the way through the film, they are no longer affiliated with Germany or the Nazi Party.

"My apologies Doctor, but we both knew that HYDRA could grow no further in Hitler's shadow."

Boom, connections to Nazis DONE right then and there. And if Indiana Jones, and the X-Men movies, and even the freaking Justice League Cartoon from the early 2000's could show actual Nazis, then I find the argument that "well it was totally ok to cut the Nazis out of WWII in the film," entirely unconvincing.

As for Wakanda, another scene that shows that the isolationism is portrayed as wrong is T'Challa's second scene with his father and the previous Black Panther's. He practically screams at his father (about what he did with Killmonger) "You were wrong," and then he turns to the others and goes "You were ALL wrong" (about shutting Wakanda off from the outside world.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81374: Mar 1st 2018 at 6:31:53 AM

[up] Again, don't spoiler the movie here.

Shawn is really good in taking apart BS. Not necessarily right-wing BS, but having an eye on his vids is a good way to keep an eye on the alt-right talking points without having to delve into the sh... yourself and giving them the clicks they want.

ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
#81375: Mar 1st 2018 at 12:29:25 PM

Infinity War has a new release date[1]


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