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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#81326: Feb 28th 2018 at 11:07:59 AM

Magneto: “While you fought Hydra, Hitler killed millions of my people” Steve: ...

I mean, what is Steve supposed to say to that? "A terrible tragedy occurred while I was trying to prevent another tragedy from happening"? How exactly are you supposed to tackle this without having Magneto come across like he's blaming the wrong person?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81327: Feb 28th 2018 at 11:18:35 AM

Well, if Magneto's the villain, then coming off like he's blaming the wrong person is an entirely acceptable tone. The primary function of a villain is to be wrong about something.

But as others have stated, Magneto as a villain has gotten tiresome, especially when the comics have been playing him as an antihero for a long time now.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#81328: Feb 28th 2018 at 11:23:26 AM

[up][up]Surprised to see you say anything positive about Steve.

But yeah, I agree and I think that if something like this was raised, it would definitely need be framed differently. Among other things, Steve became a popsicle in 1943, well before the liberation of the camps and wasn't active for very long before that, so I'm not really sure how/why he'd be more to blame any more than anyone else who served as a soldier.

I think especially because Steve is presented as a very enlightened/ nonbigoted person and he's from an area of New York that had a large Jewish population. So like it's pretty clear that he's someone who was fighting "for the right reasons" and was supportive of America entering the war. So, it doesn't make sense to blame him for the Roosevelt Administration's relative apathy, since he wasn't the one making policy.

I mean if the MCU was doing the thing where Fury was alive and in charge since World War II, it would make sense for Magneto to blame him, but that's not the MCU's version of Fury either.

Edit- Not really sure if there's an exact term for people in the United States who favored going to war against Nazi Germany on or before 1939 (the opposite group are called isolationists), but Steve is someone who was in this group.

edited 28th Feb '18 11:29:46 AM by Hodor2

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#81329: Feb 28th 2018 at 11:32:14 AM

I mean Hydra was a sub-branch of the Nazis.

Honestly though, we've explored most aspects of Magneto's life that the best thing to explore next is Magneto's family life and his rule over Genosha.

We can even involve the X-men with Xavier co-reigning in Genosha together with Magneto. The X-men team would start in Genosha rather than in America.

Turn Magneto and Xavier into consuls.

Malcolm X and Martin Luther King with the same dynamic as Julius Caesar and Pompey.

And then there's a split between the two and Xavier exiles himself from the place to go to America with the X-Men hence explaining where they were the whole time in the MCU while Magneto keeps rulership of the island.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#81330: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:13:07 PM

Steve wasn't frozen until 1945 I think.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81331: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:16:12 PM

I wasn’t thinking of it in a “blame Steve” way, more of in a “bad stuff happened that was outside your field of vision, and you didn’t do the wrong thing but your government did”.

Because CA: TFA really, really avoided talking about nazis. And that bothers me.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#81332: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:33:34 PM

It's bad if you use them both in short succession. Because it looks like you have no ideas and are ripping yourself off.
I'm not saying they should bring Magneto in ASAP, just that when it happens, I'd rather they keep his backstory as a Holocaust survivor rather than "transplanting" (for lack of a better term) him to a different genocide and that if he is an antagonist, it makes sense to take some cues from how Killmonger was done.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81333: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:37:51 PM

Magneto’s entire history is rooted in the holocaust. Anti semitism has been on the rise in America and Europe. He should not be changed to another ethnicity, he should be handled carefully, preferably by a team including Jewish writers.

edited 28th Feb '18 12:38:04 PM by wisewillow

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#81334: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:44:59 PM

[up][awesome] Exactly.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81335: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:46:32 PM

Steve just became captain America towards the end of 1943. He was frozen early 1945, before the liberation of the camps, but it is unlikely that they didn't have at least an idea what was going on at this point. The sixth flyer of the Weiße Rose had been brought to the allies at this point, and the allies proceeded to spread it out over Germany in 1943. And in this flyer they were already talking about what happened to the Jews. Though I suspect that the true level of gruesomeness didn't quite sank in until the first Camps were freed. It is always different to hear rumours about something and actually seeing it.

In any case, though, in the set-up they created, Steve's fight against Hydra was certainly important, and accusing him of not doing enough would be quite dickish considering that he first rescued multiple cities from destructions, laying down his own live and happiness while doing so.

edited 28th Feb '18 12:47:06 PM by Swanpride

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81336: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:47:02 PM

[nja]'d slightly.

TFA does have the Nazis. That's what Captain America is fighting throughout the movie, the Nazi super-science division. It's not suprising the Holocaust doesn't come up because no character in that movie could have known about it. Why would Magneto possibly have a grudge against someone who earnt his street cred punching Nazis?

About Magneto being a Holocaust survivor, keeping that is the harder option. If you think it is worth making some other sacrifices like explaining why he's still alive and buff, then sure, but honestly I don't think there's anything inherently necessary to Magneto's character about being a Holocaust survivor compared to being, say, a survivor of the Rwandan genocide or other similar events since. But I understand why people would think differently (and the Nazi hunting scene in First Class is one of the best bits of that movie.)

edited 28th Feb '18 12:50:54 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81337: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:50:17 PM

I didn’t say grudge.

Also, yeah, Hydra is the Nazi deep science division... and then Nazis never come up again. Nazis try to remove Red Skull from power- he’s too evil/crazy for the Nazis. Red Skull kills the officers and intends to bomb Berlin; he’s clearly separate from the Nazis as the greater evil.

And that’s weird and gross.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81338: Feb 28th 2018 at 12:53:03 PM

Are you seriously saying that a movie starring a panto where Captain America punches Hitler in the face (repeatedly) isn't anti-Nazi enough?

Hydra are Nazis, their salute is basically a double-headed Hitler salute, the only reason they don't have more swastikas are so TFA can be screened in Germany.

edited 28th Feb '18 12:56:04 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#81340: Feb 28th 2018 at 1:42:56 PM

Surprised to see you say anything positive about Steve.

Oh, I'm sure I'll have something negative to say about him in a later conversationtongue

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#81341: Feb 28th 2018 at 1:47:52 PM

It strikes me as odd that they are two simultaneous arguments in the MCU and Black Panther threads, one saying “Hydra isn’t Nazis” and another saying “Hydra is Nazis”.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#81342: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:05:19 PM

HYDRA are Nazis in name only. We're told that they are, but they don't adhere to Nazi ideology, they don't have Nazi racial/ethnic beliefs, they have their own salute (as opposed to the regular), and it's made abundantly clear both through dialogue and action that the Red Skull doesn't give a crap about the Nazis or their ideology and turns on them the moment that it's first convenient for him. Heck he kills the only three proper Nazis in the movie after one scene.

If they wanted to adhere to the spirit of it, Cap would have been fighting the main German Army, or the Waffen-SS, or something. And as for "well no character in the movie knew about the Holocaust," yeah because the writers chose to write it that way, so that's not much of a defense imo.

The joke that "they managed to write the Nazis out of WWII" doesn't come from nowhere. They clearly didn't want to have to deal with the actual nastiness/horrors of the Nazi Regime. So they instead went with a fictional group that acts more like SPECTRE from the James Bond films than actual Nazis.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#81343: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:07:38 PM

I could certainly call Hydra at best vaguely fascist but Nazis they kind of aren't.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81344: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:09:51 PM

"And as for "well no character in the movie knew about the Holocaust," yeah because the writers chose to write it that way, so that's not much of a defense imo."

Except no one from the Allies in real life knew about the Holocaust till well into the war...

edited 28th Feb '18 2:12:08 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81345: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:12:14 PM

[up][up][up] Two things:

1. I think it would have been kind of awful to use the Holocaust as backdrop for a WWII war adventure. In fact, all those WWII war adventures are kind of awful for portraying WWII as some great fun to be have. 2. The First Avenger is very self-aware in this regard. It not only takes a jab to propaganda, but at the very genre it represents. What do you think the scenes of Steve watching the made up war heroics are about? Hell, the colour palette alone says "yeah, this is a rose - or in this case sepia - tinted view on this war".

So, yeah, I am glad that Cap doesn't run around freeing Camps. I don't think that there would have been any way of this not ending up in bad taste.

[up] As I pointed out above, they knew for sure by 1943, and they knew that the Jews were in danger well beforehand. I guess they just couldn't really imagine what it meant if reality. But "we didn't knew" is a really comforting lie, because that allows them to not feel too bad for sending so many refugees back to Germany.

edited 28th Feb '18 2:16:30 PM by Swanpride

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#81346: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:23:04 PM

Can I address why they didn't talk much about Nazis in Cap 1 for a moment? I read somewhere (maybe here) that the reason they had Steve and company focus on HYDRA and not Hitler and his ilk is because WWII was a real war, with real, living veterans. The filmmakers were afraid having Captain America seemingly win the war by himself would come off as disrespectful of them.

And on a personal note. I think it's incredibly petty and nitpicky to criticize Steve for not personally liberating camps and torching Nazi bases when he was busy trying to stop a group that broke away from the Nazis because they weren't extreme enough. And i don't think 'petty' and 'nitpicky' are terms that should ever be apply to someone like Magneto.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#81347: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:27:02 PM

Figures from Infinity War revealed by Marvel. Slight spoilers.

I am starting to wonder if Thor gets a prosthetic eye from Rocket.

edited 28th Feb '18 2:27:21 PM by comicwriter

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#81348: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:30:01 PM

I would not trust a prosthetic anything from Rocket

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81349: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:40:20 PM

[up][up] [up]No one said Steve should have won WWII by himself or liberated the camps. We’re saying that the film did too much to diminish/sideline actual Nazis, and it should have acknowledged the rest of the war a little more. Magneto bringing up the holocaust would be a powerful moment between him and Steve.

edited 28th Feb '18 2:40:31 PM by wisewillow

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81350: Feb 28th 2018 at 2:42:28 PM

Why? What would that accomplish? Steve was working to dismantle the Nazi menace. What could Magneto possibly blame him for or confront him with?

All that would achieve is making Magneto look like an ass.

This is what you said previously:

“bad stuff happened that was outside your field of vision, and you didn’t do the wrong thing but your government did”.

The US government invaded Germany with the other Allies and stopped the Holocaust. Are you arguing that they didn't do it fast enough? Again, how and why are we supposed to hold the US cupable for this?

edited 28th Feb '18 2:48:06 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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