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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#81101: Feb 24th 2018 at 7:29:56 PM

That true. It would be fitting if Ultron Turned up in Ant Man and the Wasp 3 and revealed that Tony (in developing Ultron) repourposed an eighties project in which Hank volunteered his brainwaves for scanning.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81102: Feb 24th 2018 at 7:32:26 PM

I'm okay with anything as long as Hank is primarily responsible for Ultron.

[up] I remember a rumor about the movies plot that involved something like that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81103: Feb 24th 2018 at 7:35:44 PM

That seems... unnessarily complicated -especially given that it's implied its personality is based of of Tony's. There's only one thing you get out of that and that's aligning the comic book background with the movie background, which is pretty convoluted I think.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81104: Feb 24th 2018 at 7:43:33 PM

Hey I said it was a petty desire.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#81105: Feb 24th 2018 at 7:55:43 PM

About Natasha/Bruce, I actually liked the first couple of early scenes they had together... but it went from 'awkward flirting' to 'we're monsters and should run away together' in about an hour, leaving me sitting there going "What? Why?"

It was just so jarring and didn't need to be there.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81106: Feb 24th 2018 at 8:08:38 PM

The main problem with having Ultron based on Pym was that the Ant-Man movie had been stuck in Development Hell for so long that two Avengers films passed by before it could actually get off the ground.

Had Ant-Man become a part of the MCU early enough to be a founding Avenger as was the original Phase 1 plan, they could have had Pym as Stark's partner instead of Banner. I mean, really, what did Banner even contribute to that project? His field of study is gamma radiation. It's never really clear what he contributed to Veronica either, in fact; Whedon put his name on stuff but that stuff is pure Starktech.

With Ant-Man as an Avenger, Ultron's design could been that collaboration. Stark builds the chassis and a rudimentary AI while Pym develops the brainwave upload process based on his human/ant interface technology. Perhaps it could be originally intended to be a drone, controlled the same way Pym controls his ants.

But then something goes horribly wrong - the actual film gives us the Mind Gem and Thanos AI for this step - and Ultron develops a consciousness based on Pym's mind and embarks on his mad quest as per the film.

That's just an idea, but it's the kind of thing that could have been done if the Ant-Man movie hadn't dropped the ball so hard that it's claim to even being in Phase 2 is questionable at best. And then established Pym as someone who would never have worked with Stark on such a project anyway, so there's that too.

End of the day, they had to make due with what they had, and what they had was Stark.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81107: Feb 24th 2018 at 8:09:08 PM

The entire point was that it was a bad relationship that would never work out

And then it didn't

And then Bruce went and moped about it and had cool space adventures

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81108: Feb 24th 2018 at 8:33:49 PM

Sure, but it wasn't a convincingly written or verisimilar bad relationship that wasn't going to work out. It had no build-up and was basically thrust unto the audience from nothing.

(I know you were probably jesting, but still.)

edited 24th Feb '18 8:36:28 PM by Draghinazzo

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#81109: Feb 24th 2018 at 8:44:46 PM

I have to say I'm glad that Clint/Natasha didn't happen either, though. Not quite as nonsensical but I always want more close platonic friendships in media.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#81110: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:08:36 PM

Not a fan of the Natsha/Bruce pairing, not because of the "monsters" line and the infertility aspect, but more because Natasha was terrified of Bruce/Hulk int he first Avengers movie, which gives the relationship a similar "romance with Domestic Abuser subtext" as say Twilight. Additionally, the nerd hooking up with a hottie aspect of the relationship isn't great either, particularly the much-criticized scene of her landing on him breasts first.

I am fine though with Clintasha not being a thing though. Not only are platonic relationships cool, but Hawkeye's happy and normal home-life was like the best part of the movie. To some extent, I think we thought it was romantic in the first movie on the assumption that Hawkeye was the mainline comics version of the character, when it turns out he's actually more like Ultimate!Hawkeye.

If I had to ship Natasha with anyone, it would be Steve or Sam. I am sort of interested in seeing her at least interact with Bucky, but the abuser subtext is almost as bad with that one as with the Hulk, since the Winter Soldier was pretty much a Keyzer Soze-like figure of nightmare to Nat and other fearsome KGB assassins.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81111: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:13:40 PM

I don't ship Nat with anyone

She needs to work on herself before she's ready for a serious relationship

But facetiously: Nebula

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#81112: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:13:48 PM

That idea also would have worked more if the thing that broke apart their relationship was that the relationship itself didn't work. We were given no indication that the relationship itself was the problem, or that they were. What we got was the story trying to convince us that they were great for each other, but the world/situation kept forcing them apart.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81113: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:15:29 PM

Really?

I got more of a sense that they fundamentally wanted different things

Bruce wanted to run away from it all and Nat wanted to shove him into a hole

edited 24th Feb '18 9:15:50 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#81114: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:25:22 PM

While that's true, it wasn't really portrayed as something that was irreconcilable, in a large part because Banner's arc in the story was trying to come to terms with himself in the same way Widow is trying to encourage him to be - he wants to be able to do those things, or be in a place where he doesn't have to make that choice, and that informs most of what he does in the story. Likewise, the story starts with him possibly being able to put his worries behind him. Him ultimately being unable to is the third act twist that makes his arc tragic, rather than something that's unchangeable about his character.

The story makes it very clear that, had Ultron hadn't put him in a position where he committed his worst atrocity yet, they would've ultimately been fine. It's the situation, not their inherent differences, that drives them apart.

edited 24th Feb '18 9:27:51 PM by KnownUnknown

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#81115: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:32:05 PM

But facetiously: Nebula
Great, now I want an entire comic book run and/or book series of lesbian badasses on space adventures.

Actually, if such a thing exists anywhere someone tell me because I need it in my life.

I am fine though with Clintasha not being a thing though. Not only are platonic relationships cool, but Hawkeye's happy and normal home-life was like the best part of the movie. To some extent, I think we thought it was romantic in the first movie on the assumption that Hawkeye was the mainline comics version of the character, when it turns out he's actually more like Ultimate!Hawkeye.
Honestly, finding out he's a parent kind of made his past with Natasha make even more sense. Going "hey this young assassin kid really just needs some help getting her life on track" is such a Dad Move. It works as a parallel to his dynamic with the Maximoffs, too.

Actually, Natasha taking that place with Wanda and Pietro would have been a so much better subplot than the Bruce thing...

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81116: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:36:13 PM

[up][up][up]Which hole?

edited 24th Feb '18 9:36:21 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#81117: Feb 24th 2018 at 9:37:12 PM

There was Phyla-Vel and Moondragon but it seems like one or the other is always dead

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81118: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:08:35 PM

Bruce wanted to run away from it all and Nat wanted to shove him into a hole

I mean, it's hard to have a relationship with someone who wants to shove you in a hole no matter who you are.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Notoyax17 When all you have is a blowtorch... Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
When all you have is a blowtorch...
#81119: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:39:09 PM

(Apologies, this ended up longer than I expected tongue )

Re: Whedon's MCU stuff - I think I've mentioned it before (here or somewhere else), but I think Whedon can't handle other people's characters that well/works better with original characters.

I get the impression with both Avengers movies, but especially AOU, that Whedon sort of pigeonholes the characters in his head and then uses that fanon characterization in the next movie. He was able to write Tony and Bruce pretty well because he relates to them more (Tony being a genius great with quipping and Bruce being the sort of nerd author-insert outside of his time as the hulk).

But with the other characters, the cracks start to show a lot more. Like Steve, for example. When I first watched the Avengers, it have been a long time since I'd seen CA:TFA (only watched it once) so I didn't remember Steve all that clearly. And I came out of that movie really, REALLY disliking Steve. He came across as sanctimonious, hard-headed, not too bright, old fashioned in a way that probably would be wary with minorities/LGBT if there were any in the movie, etc.

And then, right before CA:TWS came out, they started doing reruns of the Cap's first movie on TV. And I LOVED him, TWS only making me love him more. He was my son, my husband, so lovely, all that jazz. And considering that both of those movies had the same screenwriters, the difference was night and day. Because Whedon tends to depict him as more aggressive in calm situations and quicker to lose his temper than the other movies did. Which meant that, when it came time to do Civil War, Steve and Tony (who were often the best of best friends in comics) had never been depicted as actively liking each other. They were mutually respectful colleagues or work friends at BEST. Which is a tragedy in and of itself.

And that's not even adding on the dropped character development/plot threads for both Tony (destroying all of his bots, giving up on being a hero for a bit to focus on Pepper) and Natasha (going off to find herself and having learned to trust/be more open with people from her time with Steve).

There's also sort of nonsensical places he put Natasha in in order to further the plot, like Natasha as the "lullaby" when she was probably the worst choice (after Hawkeye, perhaps) to use to fill that role. Just like Tony and Steve were never shown having a good relationship, neither were Bruce and Natasha. In fact, it's much worse because they spent the whole first movie with Natasha just trying to do her job while being actively afraid of him and Bruce distrusting/actively disliking/straight up terrorizing her. And then, with no explanation or foreshadowing, they just start liking each other? From that? That's just plain bad writing at best and internalized misogyny at worst. (I could go on forever about all the ways that romance pissed me off, so I'll stop there)

edited 24th Feb '18 10:39:42 PM by Notoyax17

"Yo, those kids are straight up liars, man. All I told them to do was run product. And by product, I mean chewing gum."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#81120: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:44:37 PM

Yeah, that sounds fair. While Whedon does depict Cap as a natural leader, he also tends to make him a stick in the mud, which is very much the opposite of what people like about him.

Oh God! Natural light!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81121: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:50:53 PM

In fairness to Whedon, the Pepper thread had just been cut from external circumstances, so he couldn't follow that one.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#81122: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:54:00 PM

Yeah if Natasha had to be with a guy then Steve or Sam would be the best choice since they actually have chemistry together.

But I like that Steve and Natasha are such good friends despite being polar opposites. I kinda want them be each other's best friends. They are what made TWS such a good movie.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#81123: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:58:40 PM

Avengers 1's simple plot may have worked to Whedon's advantage. Something I realized in retrospect to Age of Ultron is that much of the major plot focuses actually don't affect much in the story.

For instance, the plotline with Ultron and the Vibranium body he's building. This occupies over a full hour of screentime, but how much does this actually matter to Ultron's plan? Not much. Completely on the side of his real plan to build more drone bodies and turn Sokovia into a meteor, Ultron decides to build himself a flesh body out of Vibranium... because he wants to look pretty, I guess. The film's big set-pieces, from Johannesburg to Seoul to Stark Tower all revolve around this plot point, but it has no significant effect on Ultron's final battle actions.

So the film has a long 2nd act that largely has nothing to do with the 3rd. If the story went "Ultron simply builds a metal body out of Vibranium and the Avengers come up with a hack to keep him from escaping through the Internet again", the final battle would be mostly the same.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81124: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:02:26 PM

[up][up] I agree. If you had to pair Natasha with anyone Steve is one of the people that makes the most sense (to be honest, I'd prefer that over his creepy relationship with Sharon), but I think them being close friends is ultimately better.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#81125: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:51:55 PM

I ship Natasha with Sam. They have a natural chemistry and I actually think that they would be good for each other. Natasha needs some emotional support, and Sam is the guy who could give her that. Bruce is just the guy who will unload even more emotional baggage on her. And that is BEFORE we get to the little problem that he is nearly old enough to be her father, is unable to have sex without hulking out and nearly killed her in the first Avengers movie.

Anyway, I think that Whedon was the perfect choice for The Avengers. He did exactly what needed to be done, allowing the characters to bounce off each other. I give him credit for rescuing Black Widow from the Scrappy heap there (because honestly, her depiction in Ironman 2 was terrible, especially the "undressing in the back of a car in the most uncomfortable way possible" moment), He didn't really get that good of a handle on Thor, though, and Steve might be a little bit too stiff, but not to a degree that it bothers me, because it makes sense for Steve in that moment (plus, him breaking in Fury's literal vault while Tony is breaking into his virtual one is kind of brilliant).

Age of Ultron though suffers from too many studio notes (Thor's stupid subplot) and Whedon kind of getting wrapped up in a really stupid idea. He literally sets up the whole romance for this one moment of Natasha pushing Bruce into abyss. And that moment is awesome but I not just think that the romance wasn't needed, I think that the moment would have been even stronger if Natasha had done what she did as a team mate and not a love interest.


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