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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81051: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:37:18 AM

Since the person who raised this point said that Civil War and Winter Soldier are objectively superior to Whedon's work because of Age of Ultron, I feel the need to point out two things:

1 - It's unfair to attribute only Age of Ultron to Whedon and ignore the first Avengers.

2 - "Objectively" means based purely on measurable empirical evidence and not on subjective qualities. Because I'm neurotic about the use of that term, there are two objective metrics we can look at:

Rotten Tomatoes Score:

  1. Avengers - 92%
  2. Civil War - 91%
  3. Winter Soldier - 89%
  4. Age of Ultron - 75%

Box Office

  1. Avengers - $1.5 billion
  2. Age of Ultron - $1.4 billion
  3. Civil War - $1.2 billion
  4. Winter Soldier - $0.7 billion

edited 24th Feb '18 10:37:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81052: Feb 24th 2018 at 10:39:19 AM

1 - It's unfair to attribute only Age of Ultron to Whedon and ignore the first Avengers.

This is fair but even with the first Avengers I still think the Russo-led films are better (not "objectively", but reasonably, yes).

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#81053: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:07:17 AM

[up][up]Actually, it my be better to go with the average critical score (by RT's measurements) than the tomatometer:

  1. Avengers - 8/10
  2. Civil War - 7.7/10
  3. Winter Soldier - 7.6/10
  4. Age of Ultron - 6.7/10

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#81054: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:08:00 AM

I actually don't think the first Avengers is that good and it's aged poorly.

It's a very simple story, Loki isn't actually that threatening after he's captured and the faceless alien horde at the end is kinda bland.

Plus there's Captain America running around in a Halloween costume. Ew.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#81055: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:26:12 AM

People using "objectively" when talking about entertainment quality is also a bugbear of mine. Entertainment is an inherently subjective experience.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#81056: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:27:18 AM

True, although a few things are objective, like general quality of camera work, CGI, volume mixing.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#81057: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:27:57 AM

In retrospect, Loki going full on hammy Saturday morning cartoon villain was the single weakest turn for the character. I outright prefer him in Thor: The Dark World than I do in The Avengers. Currently, the more films Marvel makes that I've fallen for, the more I've begun to think lesser of The Avengers. "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny and all that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81058: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:32:32 AM

Avengers was a breakthrough as the first successful large-cast superhero team-up movie. There was an assumption prior to it that a superhero movie couldn't work if it had to juggle too many characters (e.g., Spider-Man 3, X-Men 3), and Avengers proved that wrong by being a massive success. That said, it has zero depth; it's a great popcorn movie while never rising above the level of the popcorn movie.

Winter Soldier was excellent because it brought in wider (and very pertinent) themes around the security state. An additional stregngth was that its plot kept you guessing - unlike other Marvel movies, where you can guess the broad strokes of the film by ten minutes into it (or just based on trailers), in WS I spent the first half of the movie not knowing what would happen next, which was very refreshing. The characters were well-drawn: Cap was done well enough to make me like him despite intensely disliking the country for which he's named. It gave characters like Nick Fury and Black Widow space to shine, rather than just having a hero and his sidekicks. The action was fantastic. And overall, it was an extremely tight movie - there were no scenes that felt unnecessary or dragging, nothing that felt too drawn-out or exposition-filled. That's very rare for a superhero film.

Civil War had its weaknesses, but it did manage to get me to agree with bith the main characters on some points and disagree with them on others, and deel that they were fighting for more of a reason than just Poor Communication Kills - something that, again, is rare for a superhero story where the heroes fight each other. Zemo's plan did not seem overly convoluted to me: it's fairly simple as long as you accept that the Sokovia Accords and their fallout were not a part of his plan. His goal was to verify for himself that Buccky killed Tony Stark's parents; obtain video evidence of that moment; and use it to break the Avengers apart. How he did that was something he seemed pretty flexible about.

The emotional power of the fight in Russia is one of the big things that makes it among my favourite MCU movies, despite not being as tightly or cleanly plotted as Winter Soldier.

edited 24th Feb '18 11:47:17 AM by Galadriel

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#81059: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:49:54 AM

And honestly, while this is an unpopular opinion, I had trouble getting excited for Avengers because a lot of the pre-Avengers films were either average or forgettable. Neither Thor or TIH managed to sell me on why I should care about their respective characters, and IM 2 did nothing to make me care about Black Widow either. That sort of me left unable to really enjoy the film because I just didn't care about a lot of the people in it, so the teamup did little for me.

I don't think my opinion would be as sour on it now for multiple reasons, and I recognize that it's an notable piece of cinematic history and a landmark of the MCU, but I don't consider it one of the better MCU films and never have.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81060: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:51:12 AM

I'm just hoping Infinity is epic like the last 2.

Man that movie is a fucking trial in an of itself.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#81061: Feb 24th 2018 at 11:55:46 AM

It would be really funny if Infinity War made less money than Black Panther, and it's genuinely a possibility.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#81062: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:07:14 PM

[up]I would hope not. This is the culmination.

But I think you're gonna see a lot of BP focused advertising for it since he has a major role.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#81063: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:10:29 PM

I'm surprised there has been no mention of a Hawkeye film

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#81064: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:12:06 PM

Why would there be? All of the interesting parts of Clint Barton were starched out for this, and I quote, "Hee-haw, farm-owning, boring-ass, domestic-ass, Jeremy Renner motherfucker."

My various fanfics.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81065: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:14:13 PM

They really can't adapt Matt Fraction's comic now.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81066: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:15:48 PM

Nah, I kinda liked that there was one normal one.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81067: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:16:23 PM

They can't make a movie out of him though.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81068: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:21:01 PM

Yeah, not unless they do a Black Widow/Hawkeye buddy cop film, which has already been done before and better with Winter Soldier.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#81069: Feb 24th 2018 at 12:31:43 PM

@Sharknado

A lot of people like the movie version though. How the hell is that boring? Maybe not as interesting as the comics but I still like the film version just fine.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#81070: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:25:57 PM

I dunno, maybe it's because I went into Winter Soldier expecting a political thriller, but I was able to predict almost every plot point in the film. Oh no, Nick Fury is "dead". Oh no, they're on the run. Oh, they're going to go back to a place in the first film because nostalgia. Oh, Nick Fury isn't dead. Oh, half of SHIELD is corrupt, who could've seen that coming? Oh, they're going to recruit the guy Cap casually made friends with earlier? Oh no, evil SHIELD has taken over good SHIELD and needs to be stopped.

Pretty much everything aside from the HYDRA part, which didn't actually change my predictions any. Also, the Winter Soldier himself has very little impact on the plot aside from being The Dragon.

Civil War would've been a stronger film if the "there're more Winter Soldiers" subplot either led up to something or was removed entirely.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#81071: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:33:05 PM

Civil War would've been a stronger film if the "there're more Winter Soldiers" subplot either led up to something or was removed entirely.

I disagree. I think it was a pretty clever way to trick the viewer into thinking there's going to be an Enemy Mine situation with the two factions then pull out the rug. It's the device Batman v. Superman did to lazily end its conflict (oh no there's a monster so we're friends now) subverted in exchange for a more brutal clash.

edited 24th Feb '18 2:33:19 PM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#81072: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:34:05 PM

Either of those would have ruined the moral ambiguity. The purpose of the Winter Soldiers' plot was to serve as exactly what it was: an excuse conflict. A trumped up fake threat for Cap to rush out half-cocked to try and battle, creating the dilemma of

  • Pro-Reg: Cap was wrong, straight up. Throwing caution to the wind to chase Zemo was a mistake.
  • Anti-Reg: But what if he wasn't? What kind of harm could that have caused?
  • Pro-Reg: But he was. What kind of harm did he cause chasing a snipe hunt?
  • Anti-Reg: But what if he wasn't?

edited 24th Feb '18 2:34:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81073: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:34:43 PM

[up][up] Ehh... but at the same time the final clash is a personal one, not over ideals. Not sure if that floats your boat more but you could argue it's still a cop-out (though much less of a copout than Enemy Mine)

I will say that the conflict isn't helped by the preceeding incompetence of the "world council". It's hard to stick the Avengers with collateral damage when the Council wanted to nuke New York and it's even harder to take it from Tony when basically the entire preceeding movie could have been avoided had he just listened to his teammates.

edited 24th Feb '18 2:39:48 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#81074: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:46:54 PM

Ehh... but at the same time the final clash is a personal one, not over ideals. Not sure if that floats your boat more but you could argue it's still a cop-out

I think they could've emphasized this more in the final scene or in the battle, but what I got over it was that the battle was still over ideals in the sense that it becomes clear Cap's own personal judgement is faulty. His stance throughout the film was "we can't trust the government institutions to handle our power responsibly, so we will trust ourselves". But then it being revealed he's been keeping major secrets from Tony proves they can't trust each other either. And Steve realizing his own bias results in him giving up the Captain America mantle.

edited 24th Feb '18 2:47:35 PM by Tuckerscreator

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81075: Feb 24th 2018 at 2:48:43 PM

[up] That's an interesting way to look at it, hadn't considered that avenue before.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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