Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
When it comes to getting more diverse films made, the people "who's opinions matter most" are the Hollywood producers responsible for making them. And they're the same people who invented the excuses.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Honestly, the preconception about black-lead movies not being successful is moreso aimed towards the mid tier budget movies. Blockbusters have always had a certain immunity to that rule, Will Smith alone throws that out the window.
Don't get me wrong, Black Panther definitely deserves the accolades, if only for being a predominantly black cast (only two white characters of any importance). But we are not going to see any change until we get a Deadpool-esque success with a black cast.
Bi-five? Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to use that all of the time now.
Soooo... Like Get Out!?
Edit: Hooray for an entirely out of context pagetopper!
edited 23rd Feb '18 5:07:36 PM by Pseudopartition
Yes, there have been lots of successful midbudget films with black leads (and often black directors) lately - Get Out, Girls Trip and Hidden Figures are just a few.
Black Panther - a big-budget action movie with not only a black lead and a black dorector, but with virtually all the main cast being black as well - is something new. And given all the records it's breaking, Hollywood would have to be brain-dead not to take the hint.
At the domestic box office, all the DCEU films have fairly poor grosses except the one with a female director and lead. All the MCU individual films from Phase 2 have middling-to-good (i.e., $200 to $400 mil) domestic grosses, and Black Panther is blowing that out of the water.
That sends a pretty clear message: if you want to make lots of money, expand your casting and hiring beyond white men.
edited 23rd Feb '18 5:16:52 PM by Galadriel
@KJ Mc Kealy Yeah agree that this film is basically the first big budgeted blockbuster film to star an almost all black cast. So there isn’t much comparision since all the other all black movie are usually not box office blockbusters and small scale dramas/comedy/blaxploitation movie. The closest I can think of is Black Dynamite (aka the best movie ever made) and maybe Die Blackula Die. So I can see this conception similar to how people complain there is never a good live action anime movie when all they use for comparison is the American made (though to be fair Speed Racer was a good movie and Japan isn’t any better when it comes to live action anime adaptions as there are duds).
Though oddly enough, I never really heard any of this preconception that the movie will fail due to the all black cast until now.
That's why I specified having a black cast and not just having black leads. Both Get Out and Hidden Figures had prominent white supporting characters and played more into the story than the black supporting characters. Black Panther had a couple token white characters but a LARGE black supporting cast, not to mention actually taking place in Africa depicting the culture and traditions.
Get Out wasn't a mid-budget, not by Hollywood standards, anyway, as it cost less than $5 million to produce.
The logic movie studios tend to work under is that white men control a disproportionately large share of the nation's money, which makes them the most lucrative demographic to cater to. However, if every movie caters to that demographic, then when a movie comes along that caters to a different demographic, it can do gangbusters because of the relative lack of competition.
If Hollywood was more diverse and there were more movies coming out with lots of black talent involved, Black Panther probably wouldn't be doing as phenomenally as it is.
x5 Not to spoil the fun party, but I think Wonder Woman and Black Panther did so well is because they are the "first" of their kind: To have a female lead and black, respectively for a modern superhero movie. A lot of people who otherwise won't go to movies will turn out for them. They will open doors for sure, but let's see how their sequels and other kind of similar movies (AKA female leads superhero movies like Captain Marvel) perform.
edited 23rd Feb '18 9:41:42 PM by shatterstar
Funny, I watched both Age of Ultron and Civil War back to back over the last two days.
I didn't think Age of Ultron was horrible by any means, but it has a lot of very noticeable problems that make it understandable why people dislike it. Almost every character has practically the same voice, making very similar-sounding snarky quips, which just deflate tension in a bad way and make all of the characters' personalities blend together. It also has a number of terribly executed/conceived plot elements and character arcs (such as the Brucex Natasha romance being a narrative non-sequitur and the complete nonsense that is Vision's creation completely mangling anything resembling a proper character arc for Tony). While I consider it enjoyable, it's still a very uneven film.
Civil War by contrast is extremely tightly-written, with a large number of character arcs being juggled that all intertwine seamlessly into the plot progression and into each other, and where every character sounds completely different. While there are many understandable criticisms to be made about it as well and I have no issue with people disliking it, I think the difference between narrative construction and character handling between the two is palpable.
Basically, it's fine if you like Joss Whedon but please give this a rest already and stop treating him like he's the second coming of Jesus. It's obnoxious when people do that for any creator.
edited 23rd Feb '18 10:16:40 PM by Draghinazzo
To be fair, Joss made the highest-grossing movie in the MCU, and one of the best ones in it, and he hasn't turned in any box-office bombs - Age of Ultron still did well (it made more than Civil War, which had a similar number of Avengers in it), despite the sizable amount of Executive Meddling that diverted parts of its plot to setting up other movies. Joss was clearly worn down by the conflucting demands, and I think he'd be the first to admit it wasn't all he wanted it to be. That said, the Black Widow romance arc was unnecessary and a bad call.
Joss was still much better for Black Widow than the director of IM 2 was (the latter treated her solely as sexy fanservice), and got (deserved) credit for that in Avengers. The Russos did an even better job of writing her in Winter Soldier, in my opinion.
The Russos have made two very good movies. That doesn't make them infallible, and I hope that they don't get a fan mob on their backs the way Joss did even if Infinity War does fall short of our hopes.
edited 23rd Feb '18 10:09:55 PM by Galadriel

My thought is people will still make whatever claim they were going to make, but the people who's opinions matter most will see it for the bullshit it is.