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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80901: Feb 22nd 2018 at 10:40:16 AM

[up][up] I agree (which might be a first). If anything, I wish he had made the message more forcefully. It seems like every time the movie made a point or something emotional was happening, the movie threw in a big distraction, and it angered me, because I didn't want to get distracted, I wanted to take in the underlying ugliness of Asgard but also what its destruction actually meant.

The only scene which was allowed to truly play out was the elevator scene between Thor and Loki, which is consequently my favourite, but I would have liked the same kind of pacing between serious and silly in the whole movie.

edited 22nd Feb '18 10:40:30 AM by Swanpride

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#80902: Feb 22nd 2018 at 10:44:16 AM

First, her Maleficent crown is unimpressive

I never thought I’d hear this described as unimpressive. It’s Jack Kirby’s Antlers of Death!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#80903: Feb 22nd 2018 at 10:46:35 AM

I'm totally onboard for messages of "Colonialism's a shitty, shitty thing that did awful things to people and here's why." But I don't feel like Ragnarok sold that message very well. It's there, mind you, but very little time is actually spent on it.

Ragnarok got distracted and decided it wanted to spend 2/3 of its runtime being a Planet Hulk adaptation instead, which I feel was ultimately to the detriment of its central narrative about Asgard, Hela, and the horrors they wreaked across the Nine Realms. That story is present but there's no time to really engage with it because we have to go watch Hulk punch Thor again.

The issue with Ragnarok isn't that it didn't have a smart message. It's that it wasn't willing to commit to its message and actually talk about it for more than five minutes.

edited 22nd Feb '18 10:46:45 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
#80904: Feb 22nd 2018 at 10:48:45 AM

Black Panther breaks another record[1]

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80905: Feb 22nd 2018 at 10:53:14 AM

Like, even in its Arc Words about Asgard being a people, not a place, I don't get the feeling that they really wanted to explore the imperialism angle. The horrors of colonialism are presented more like a cool character trait for Hela rather than an actual theme.

"Asgard is not a place. It's a people." Yeah. A people who've done some really shitty things to a whole bunch of cultures. But whatever, we knocked down some buildings so I guess that fixes genocide.

Ironically, in having to flee Asgard, they're going to have to find a new place to colonize. So that's a thing.

edited 22nd Feb '18 10:54:43 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80906: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:01:11 AM

@Julep

Yeah, bastard tried installing an Austrian as our "emperor". Before that there was a war about a pastry chef or something.

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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80907: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:01:52 AM

I thought the Planet Hulk angle added to the imperialism theme, though perhaps not as strongly as it could have. The “prisoners with jobs” bit is strongest, but there’s also the overthrow of grandmaster and the apathy/collaboration of Valkyrie.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80908: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:10:25 AM

I'll admit the Planet Hulk stuff sagged the middle a bit but I still appreciate the message regardless.

I'd also have to challenge Guardians Vol. 2 being better at the humor. The jokes in that were mostly overdone, crude, and gross. The drama works but it's in spite of the really awful humor.

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Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80909: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:17:12 AM

Oh no, Ragnarok was funnier, but GOTG 2 was better at sometimes toning down the humor to let some tension or emotion sink in. You get the feeling that the very well-done final burial of GOTG 2 would have had some random joke, like the Silver Surfer crashing in the coffin, if it had happened in Ragnarok.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80910: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:19:01 AM

Eh...debatable but I'll concede that Ragnarok had some awkward moments.

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BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#80911: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:32:46 AM

Speaking of Thor Ragnarok People like comparing Killmonger to Loki but I feel like comparing him to Hela makes more sense.

35 year old white man.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#80912: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:41:10 AM

RE Ragnorak and anti-colonialism, I was thinking of this interesting piece I had read (no idea where, unfortunately). Basically, the argument was that in light of his mixed Maori and Jewish ancestry, coupled with his identity as a New Zealander, Waititi has a double-consciousness in terms of colonizer and colonizee. Like on one hand, the New Zealand identity ties into the idea of acknowledging a brutal colonial past of one's country, but on the other hand, you can see the idea of a homeland existing mentally/spiritually even if it no longer necessarily exists physically as being important with his Maori and Jewish identity.

And like I don't recall if the article was arguing this, but I think that the double-consciousness makes a lot of sense and has a general applicability, as it's the norm for ones ancestors to be oppressors in some contexts and victims in others. Sometimes at the same time.

edited 22nd Feb '18 11:41:40 AM by Hodor2

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#80913: Feb 22nd 2018 at 11:52:25 AM

I don't really get the colonialism angle of Ragnarok. It's certainly a valid interpretation of the story, but "I want to conquer everyone" is such a standard villain motivation, the fact that that's what drives Hela doesn't seem all that noteworthy.

The main problem with the colonialism interpretation is that we only get to see two of the Nine Realms besides Asgard. Musphelheim, which is populated by evil fire demons, and Earth, where Thor is a beloved celebrity and the only Asgardian anyone has problems with is rogue criminal Loki. If it's a colonialism metaphor, who are the colonized here?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80914: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:00:21 PM

They're kind of explicit in talking about it. Yeah they probably should've shown it in greater detail but if I could quote Film Crit Hulk on this, it's not subtext, it's text. It's pretty explicit, saying it's just "an interpret" downplays that.

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#80915: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:22:09 PM

Not really. Hela wants to conquer the universe, force everyone to serve her, and take other worlds' treasures back to Asgard, but there's no indication that she wants to establish colonies of Asgardians on other planets.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80916: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:25:59 PM

She's stealing shit from other cultures then, is she not? That's imperialism.

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#80917: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:34:58 PM

Yeah, but imperialism is a much broader concept. As I said, "Conquer the world(s)!" is a pretty standard villain motivation, including quite a few MCU villains before her.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80918: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:36:52 PM

Tell me then, what difference is there between imperialism and colonialism?

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Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80919: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:40:33 PM

Imperialism is influencing, Colonialism is settling.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#80920: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:41:27 PM

Imperialism simply requires making other nations subservient to another nation. It doesn't require turning the conquered nations into colonies, where large numbers of people from the conquering nation move there to supplant the local population.

edited 22nd Feb '18 12:42:11 PM by RavenWilder

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#80921: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:43:48 PM

And that's what Asgard did. We saw that in previous movies, that they consider the other Realms subservient to them. By now it's a mostly peaceful relationship, as Odin redefined himself as "Protector of the Nine Realms" instead of ruler of the Nine Realms, but it's still there. The early scenes in Dark World, for example, have people rebelling against Asgard.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#80922: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:48:32 PM

Don’t forget: “Where do you think all this gold came from?” Nicely echoed by Killmonger in the museum in the next film. “You think your ancestors paid a fair price when they stole it?”

I like Ragnarok’s efficiency and lack of bloat, but it’s a film that I wouldn’t have minded as a whole series about Sakaar and Hela’s occupation.

edited 22nd Feb '18 12:50:39 PM by Tuckerscreator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80923: Feb 22nd 2018 at 12:56:15 PM

I mean in the end, isn't this just arguing about semantics? It still has an obvious message about subjugating and stealing from other cultures and putting the boot to them.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80924: Feb 22nd 2018 at 1:09:13 PM

"Is the villain being imperialistic or are they just doing the standard villain thing of conquering and subjugating other cultures?"

Yes.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80925: Feb 22nd 2018 at 1:10:26 PM

Message, yes. Obvious, no. We don't see anything of the realms, we are not supposed to extrapolate a message about what happened there from what the movie says. For all we know the gold could com from unifying Asgard, and I certainly hope the writers didn't expect me to remember about some obscure plot points of Thor 2 to understand the deep message of Ragnarok.

It would be different if the movie emphasized the continuity within the trilogy, but it prefers to just kill whoever is not needed. Which is fine, mind you, but it also has consequences on how viewers will perceive the movie.


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