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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#80726: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:28:27 AM

I liked Ant-Man overall. But yeah, one of my biggest issues with it was how it handled BOTH Wasps actually. Like if (for the purposes of that film anyway) fridged Janet with only a brief flashback scene, and it was done just to further Hank's man-pain, and then that man-pain was used to justify why Hope couldn't be Wasp either.

"Hey I know that you're pretty much the most all-around competent person in this whole movie, know how to use the suit better, have been around the suit your whole life, are a better fighter, AND you work at the company that they need to break into and know it's layout. But you cannot wear it because your daddy said so, despite being a grown woman, because he has issues." It was so, lame. And the sequel had BETTER rectify this by making Hope look as awesome as possible.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80727: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:29:52 AM

Especially as Ant-Man is hardly a major A-lister so a movie named "The Wasp" would not have had a obvious handicap fame-wise.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#80728: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:33:34 AM

I think that they did it because that film was a weird almagamation of Edgar Wright's script, and stuff that Marvel added in. Apparently they boosted Hope's role in that film in comparison to Wright's script actually. But ironically, in doing so, they made her not being Wasp feel even more absurd imo.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80729: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:34:36 AM

Marvel recognized that a movie about "fatherhood" with zero input from the daughters of those fathers was a pretty f*ckstupid idea but they also didn't want to throw out Wright's script entirely so they did a patchwork job, trying to put Hope into it a bit more but without actually affecting any of Wright's plot beats.

The result: basically the same f*cking movie, but slightly more insulting about it.

"it's not a movie about dudes and bros being dudes and bros. There's a woman here. She's in the kitchen making sandwiches for the bros. WE'RE PROGRESSIVE."

edited 19th Feb '18 9:35:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80730: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:36:44 AM

They probably should've been better off maybe throwing out more of Wright's script, if that's the case. Wright kind of has a big problem with writing women.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#80731: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:38:41 AM

When has Wright had problems writing women?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#80732: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:39:57 AM

One of the things I liked about Black Panther is that it broke from the character types that have become pretty standard for MCU movies.

There's no "sidekick" character like War Machine or Falcon. Instead, there are more numerous supporting characters, all with their own ideals and worldviews and goals. (That's pretty essential for the story it's trying to tell - you can't tell a story about a country's internal politics without having a variety of characters with different views on those politics.)

There's also no Love Interest that's primarily just there to be the love interest. Nakia and T'Challa certainly have a thing, but that's not the sole or even the primary element of her character, and it's not a very large part of T'Challa's character either.

Shuri's a more standard character type in that she's basically Q from James Bond, but 1) she's an awesome Q, and really fun, and there's her great brother-sister relationship with T'Challa in addition to her tech role and 2) she does get some action scenes.

My one issue with how her character was written, and her great comedy moments, is that the show seemed to forget that T'Chaka is her dad, too. She just lost her father last week. You'd expect that to have some emotional impact. We see that T'Challa is mourning his father, but we never see her doing so.

edited 19th Feb '18 9:44:52 AM by Galadriel

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80733: Feb 19th 2018 at 9:41:06 AM

[up][up]

I mean he openly admitted he's not good at it once. Most of his female characters are usually just props.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#80735: Feb 19th 2018 at 10:08:34 AM

Honestly my biggest potential fear about Ant Man and The Wasp is that they're going to build up Wasp as so cool and competent, only to undercut her in the third act (be it by getting captured or taken out of commission in some way) so that Scott has to "step up" and do it himself or something.

I've seen many an action movie do that, and it's so annoying.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80736: Feb 19th 2018 at 11:05:57 AM

@Shuri: Presumably some time happened between T'Chaka's death and the beginning of the movie. First, there was the end of Civil War (don't know how long that lasted), then there was all the transition and, I suppose, the burial. It's only the coronation that took more time. The reason T'Challa focuses on it more than Shuri is that he is becoming the king, like his father, so it makes sense for him to grieve a lot more. Shuri probably had more than a month, if not several months, to deal with the disappearance of T'Chaka. Plus she looks like the kind of awesome person who would rather try to support her brother (especially given what he's going through, getting into power) than weigh him with her own issues - she has her mother for that, too.

Edit: Okay, twelve days. Still, Shuri had her mother with her, and now her brother is becoming the king, she has better things to do than having him worry about her emotional state.

[up] Oh yes. Ironically, one of the movies that pretty much averted that altogether was the otherwise quite flawed The Amazing Spider-Man. Gwen just kept rescuing herself and solving her problems and pretty much being awesome, to the point that you really wished that she was the one who got bitt...oh.

edited 19th Feb '18 11:11:04 AM by Julep

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80737: Feb 19th 2018 at 11:06:31 AM

Re: Black Panther:

Media: Comic book fatigue will hit soon!

Feige: Hold my beer!

WB: Sure, we could use some alcohol!

(sadly I fear that the movie industry will learn the wrong kind of lesson again).

Re: Ant-man

I am frankly tired of hearing about Edgar Wright. The movie we didn't get is nearly always claimed to be the better one, but in truth, a lot of the stuff which people liked about Ant-man was added by Reed and his team. Plus, Wright was the wrong pick for a movie which should give the female lead the same presence (if not more!) from the get go. Let's face it, The Wasp is more popular than either version of Ant-man is.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80738: Feb 19th 2018 at 11:08:05 AM

[up][up] Black Panther explicitly starts a week after Civil War. It’s one of the few Marvel movies to dramatically ignore the real life - in-universe matching timescale.

edited 19th Feb '18 11:10:06 AM by KnownUnknown

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80739: Feb 19th 2018 at 11:09:37 AM

[up][up][up] Re: timeline. Nope. The bbc lady at the beginning says the attack on Vienna was a week ago. So... 6-12 days before the movie, if we give wiggle room that the newscaster didn’t mean EXACTLY one week ago.

Aaaaand [nja] ‘d by [up]

edited 19th Feb '18 11:10:09 AM by wisewillow

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80740: Feb 19th 2018 at 11:09:56 AM

[up][up][up] That one is not on Feige, it's on Ryan Coogler.

I think some could find a bit weird to praise a white guy for Black Panther, one of the rare occurrences where you have a lot of black people to choose from.

edited 19th Feb '18 11:10:09 AM by Julep

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#80741: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:05:42 PM

I get that Pym's daughter could have been used better, but I'm not broken up about it. Good to see Black Panther's a massive hit.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#80742: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:10:24 PM

I think the biggest weapon in Black Panther's box-office arsenal was his preliminary showing in Civil War. Everybody was hyped up by Boseman's performance and eagerly awaiting his solo film. They planted the seeds in fertile soil, and reaped a huge harvest. Ant-Man and Doctor Strange had to stand solely on their own advertising, and so didn't pull in as huge numbers.

Spider-Man: Homecoming got the same boost. It might not have done spectacularly, but it probably would have tanked due to Spider-Fatigue if Civil War didn't stoke the fires by sneaking him into Captain America's film.

Never doubt the power of advertising in somebody else's film. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80743: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:14:15 PM

Hasn't that been kinda the idea behind the MCU?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80744: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:16:07 PM

Now I really want a Black Panther level movie for a Latinx hero in the MCU. Seeing black kids and adults freak out all weekend has been wonderful, and it would be great if the MCU did that for Latinx kids too.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#80745: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:16:39 PM

Well, yes. But I mean having the protagonist themself actually make their first appearance in a more-established character's film to plant the seeds. The connected web of the MCU is what's made such a strong collective franchise, but I'm talking about intra-universal box number comparison; what makes one MCU film do better or worse than a fellow MCU film.

edited 19th Feb '18 12:17:06 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#80746: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:25:50 PM

Eh, I agree about the Spider-hype, but I never felt like CW gave a huge boost to Black Panther. He was very stylish, but I think people are coming today because of what he represents - not because of the image he left during that movie.

It can't have hurt, obviously, but it would have worked almost as well as a standalone on "production hype" only.

edited 19th Feb '18 12:26:24 PM by Julep

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#80747: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:31:36 PM

[up][up]I think that's a smart idea as well. Even if it's coming way too late I'm sure the eventual Black Widow movie will also benefit from the fact that she's a character the audience now knows from like 5 movies.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#80748: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:31:43 PM

[up][up] It would still make a buttload of money, but it wouldn't set record for the 5th highest opening weekend of all times.

[up] 7 movies, actually. Iron Man 2, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Captain America Civil War and all 4 of the Avengers movies.

edited 19th Feb '18 12:35:27 PM by shatterstar

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80750: Feb 19th 2018 at 12:46:56 PM

I’m not familiar with that character. I’m more MCU than comics; only full run I’ve read is the original 16(?) issues of Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel by G. Willow Wilson and co.


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