Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
@Tobias-
Adding to your post above, what I found striking with the ferry scene is how it reminded me of a similar moment in the Spectacular cartoon where Sandman accidentally causes a similar catastrophe and then does a Heel–Face Turn/ Heroic Sacrifice saving the lives of the passengers.
I found it striking how there is no such scene in Homecoming, and Toomes barely if at all seems to acknowledge his actions harming Liz when that Chitauri bomb goes off.
I can't believe I'm saying something positive about Tony Stark, but besides the dynamic of Tony and Peter in terms of responsibility, I think it shows Toomes' hypocrisy that he holds himself out as being better than Tony when he not only starts selling weapons, which of course Tony stopped doing years ago, but the guy has zero self-reflection on his actions impacting either his family or civilians in general. Whereas Tony is constantly thinking of the consequences of his actions. He doesn't always make the right choices, but at least he cares.
Not to mention that while Aaron Davis is most obviously contrasted with the Stupid Evil Bryce, I think there's also an implied contrast with how Davis, the career criminal actually gives more thought to his actions than Toomes, the "respectable" guy turned criminal.
edited 14th Feb '18 5:11:25 PM by Hodor2
Well now I'm imagining a Power Rangers Civil War using all of the Ranger teams and I'm super upset it's not a thing.
This song needs more love.
Believe it or not, we almost got just that in Hexagon: https://lostmediawiki.com/Power_Rangers:_Hexagon_(lost_planned_adaption_of_Ninpuu_Sentai_Hurricaneger;_date_unknown)
I recall the original point of secret identities is to keep villains from finding the hero's loved ones and using them for ransom, but that was basically rendered pointless in the Raimi films where the villains always had Peter's loved ones hostage. Even just from sheer random luck like Doc Ock just happened to find and steal Aunt May out of everyone in NYC.
It's a little funny reading the old Spider-Man comics and finding there's another reason why Peter didn't tell Aunt May about his powers; because she's so old he thinks the shock would kill her! Now it doesn't matter, with how May got younger with every film adaptation.
![]()
glomps
If you're interested, there's a series of fanmade videos online about Megazords beating the snot out of each other: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeVOvuqiMcA
Probably the best we'll get outside of fanfics.
Bringing this back to the Marvel, Black Panther Fight Moves Compilation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5v-TMNhx4
edited 14th Feb '18 6:29:04 PM by Guy01
Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?Yes. It was an interesting choice they made, to have Toomes be a counterpart not to Peter, but to Peter's mentor. From his age to his methods to the fact that he flies around in an armored suit, Homecoming's Vulture is a Shadow Archetype for Tony Stark. Even his motivation is that he has a grudge against Stark; he only gets involved with Peter's life by the purest of coincidences.
This reinforces a major element of Spider-Man's character that he's never really gotten to showcase before: Peter being a sidekick archetype who insists on being the hero himself rather than playing second fiddle to one. Toomes is exactly the kind of character you might see as the villain of a hypothetical Iron Man 4, but he never will be, because he crossed paths with Spider-Man instead.
And Spider-Man was hero enough to take him.
Probably for the best, too. Tony wouldn't have dug him out of the flaming wreckage. "Taaaaank missile!"
True. Man, I hope we get to see more of Davis. He stole every scene he was in.
"Look, man, I just want to stick somebody up. I'm not trying to, like, shoot him back in time or something."
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Also, on the topic of Aaron Davis, he's a perfect example of where DareDevil goes wrong.
Spider-Man sees the arms deal going down and is watching it when it goes south. Shocker pulls a gun on Aaron Davis and Spider-Man jumps in, saying, "If you're going to shoot someone, shoot me." He risks his life to save Davis's despite the guy straight-up admitting to planning an armed robbery, demonstrating his moral fiber and saving a life.
For this, the narrative rewards him later down the line. When he tries to interrogate Davis, his efforts at scaring the guy go south hard and fast, but Davis gives him the intel he's looking for anyway. Why? Because he recognizes that Spider-Man saved his life and he respects that. He pays back Spidey's act of kindness, which leads directly to Spidey being able to track down Toomes.
The plot is able to advance as a direct consequence of Parker's good heart and strong moral code. His good deeds and firm moral stance are acknowledged and rewarded within the narrative.
That, right there, is precisely what DD is missing.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Black Panther opening at $200 million is a possibility according to Deadline[1]
The first Avengers film opened at $207 million.
That good.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.But remember, guys, there's no market for movies starring women or minority actors. Nobody wants to see a black man as the main character in a big budget action movie. It's not Hollywood's fault they never make those movies; there just isn't an audience for them.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub."Can't have a market for movies that don't exist." - Some executive, probably.
This song needs more love."It's a Marvel movie, of course it made money! It was going to do that no matter what. It proves nothing." is what I imagine they'll say.
Which is true, but only to an extent. If this film does as well as I'm expecting it to it'll likely end up outdoing multiple films with white leads that Marvel has put out.
I agree that this movie probably wouldn't have been as much of a success if the MCU hadn't built up such a big brand. However, if this movie makes around 200 million opening weekend it will surpass every movie except for Avengers. It might even surpass Avengers. While I wouldn't be surprised if Infinity War beats that total in a few months that's still a tremendous achievement.
edited 14th Feb '18 7:28:24 PM by Kostya
@Tobias- I'd also add to that that I liked that for what's essentially the first time, the MCU is favorable toward the idea of a hero who is a Technical Pacifist/ not kill happy. Which I think gets at another part of the Tony/Peter dynamic which is interesting. Tony definitely has better judgment from age and expereince, but there's also an element that Peter is the better person and Tony knows this. Which I think is part of why Tony is disappointment in him not doing better in the ferry scene. Thinking back also to Tony's advice to not do anything Tony wouldn't do and not anything Tony would do either.
Also, in terms of Toomes, it struck me just now that he averts something I was complaining about in a previous discussing regarding Tony in relation to other genius characters and the idea that he would be able to replicate/surpass them without difficulty. While Toomes does of course scavenge technology, there's obviously a skill in reverse engineering, and since (both in canon and with fan speculation) Tony has a gift for reverse engineering other people's tech too, while I'd stop short of saying that Toomes would be Tony's equal if he had the right funding (especially since Toomes is getting help from The Tinker), he's certainly very intelligent and talented.
Which is why it's so shitty that he can't think of any use for the technology except for carrying out robberies and selling it to other criminals. Toomes isn't Tony without ethics. That's Obadiah Staine. And he also isn't Tony but incompetent. That's Justin Hammer. He's Tony with a mundane type of selfishness/evil, and his competence isn't an issue.
Not really on topic with the Vulture discussion, but my personal favorite Homecoming moment is the "I just wanted to be you" "I wanted you to be better" exchange, because it's just so great at illustrating why Tony is bad at communicating/why Peter is a kid who needs to get better at receiving communication and understanding the underlying points.
To Tony, it's an acknowledgement that he is a deeply flawed human being who has made a shit-ton of mistakes and screwed up more than a few personal relationships in the process and that he wanted Peter to avoid the same crushing guilt that comes from that, and the audience can easily recognize it as such.
But the tragedy is that to Peter, that isn't what it means at all. He still idolizes Tony Stark as a superhero rockstar, so to him "I wanted you to better" isn't a cautionary tale, it's a reprimand for not living up to what must seem to him an impossible standard. And that's hilariously tragic.
Great point. I thought that was a line in the movie but wasn't positive so didn't want to misquote.
As you suggest, and IMO, there's a bit of an implied "better than me" in Tony's comment that as you say, Peter doesn't pick up.
Yeah, there's interesting nuances to the relationship. Which is of course why I don't get (but am not surprised by) the heated YMMV arguments over whether or not Tony Stark is a terrible mentor/person, which rather miss the nuances. Can't say much positive about Happy though. Even though Peter was kind of annoying, he really dropped the ball.
edited 14th Feb '18 8:37:32 PM by Hodor2
Again, I love Tony's speech to Peter in that scene. That entire scene is amazing from start to finish. The "I wanted you to be better," is a fantastic nuance of phrasing because of exactly that communication issue.
- What Tony Means: I wanted you to be better than me.
- What Peter Hears: I wanted you to be better than you are.

I mean, the Rangers are the ones driving giant robots to fight kaiju on a daily basis. I imagine Stark would want to have at least a few words with them regarding those.
Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?