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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80501: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:02:13 AM

[up][up][up] ...he talks the villain into redeeming himself and saving the entire city. Heroic Sacrifice is not suicide, in my opinion.

Doc Ock wasn't monstrous because he had robot tentacles, he was monstrous because he went around robbing banks and hurting people. So when he redeems himself for his actions... that means he has stopped being a monster, and therefore does not die a monster.

edited 14th Feb '18 11:02:27 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80502: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:07:45 AM

She beat 11 kinds of shit out of the Chameleon at least twice.

Psh, that's nothing. Aunt May once fed the guy arsenic.

Maybe Chameleon should stick to fighting just Spidey. At least Peter will only leave him webbed to a wall or something. Every time he goes up against the Parker family he nearly ends up dead.

edited 14th Feb '18 11:09:21 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80503: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:07:55 AM

The one character who I'd say Raimi does the best with is Harry Osborn, whose progression From Nobody to Nightmare and then back again is the best part of the trilogy. Of course, his Heroic Sacrifice ultimately suffers from the fact that the Spider-movies are a goddamn bloodbath already.

It cheapens his sacrifice when it feels more like he died 'cause he's a villain and it's what you do than anything else. Sandman's the only bad guy in any of the films who's allowed to walk away with his life intact at the end, and that's awkward too 'cause it doesn't really feel like he learned anything or changed. If anything, Peter learned a valuable lesson about why it's okay for the Sandman to steal things and murder people.

And Harry? Well, he's a corpse. Not as a result of his own undoing or a great act of repentance for his crimes, but because some guy he never met totally stabbed him while he was trying to make amends to Peter. It doesn't really fit thematically.

But that's Spider-Man 3. It drops a lot of balls. No need to hold it against Harry's arc that his was one of them.

...he talks the villain into redeeming himself and saving the entire city. Heroic Sacrifice is not suicide, in my opinion.

Doc Ock wasn't monstrous because he had robot tentacles, he was monstrous because he went around robbing banks and hurting people. So when he redeems himself for his actions... that means he has stopped being a monster, and therefore does not die a monster.

I'm beyond sick of Redemption Equals Death. It's the cheap way out. it's easier to die in one grand gesture than it is to live as a changed man.

Doc Ock killed himself to stop any further harm from occurring as a product of his own actions while doing nothing to make amends for the past harm he's caused, and then got to chill in the cold embrace of death rather than actually having to change his worldview and become a better person.

edited 14th Feb '18 11:10:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80504: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:10:49 AM

I always felt like Ock's death was kind of... pointless. He had already switched sides, he pledged to no longer live a monster... and then he dies. The fact that his last words were a Big "NO!" when it turns out that, nope, he's dying anyway just kind of draws attention to it. It feels less like Redemption Equals Death and more of a Heel–Face Door-Slam, since he's not even intending to sacrifice himself or anything. Harry's felt the same way.

The Raimi films were from a time when villain deaths in superhero movies were obligatory, and a several of the deaths in the series felt needlessly tacked on as a result.

edited 14th Feb '18 11:11:43 AM by KnownUnknown

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80505: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:15:22 AM

@Tobias Drake: To be specific, the climax is about how Doc Ock (twisted by the A.I of his arms) is obsessed with building a device (that will probably kill a lot of people) because it was his dream to do so (just like Parker's dream in this film is living a normal life), and Spidey talks him down by doing a Meaningful Echo of Octavius's own words ("Intelligence isn't a privilege, it's a gift.") and going into a Kirk Summation about how to do the right thing, we often have to make personal sacrifices (the whole message of the film), which motivates Octopus into changing his mind and coming up with a solution to the problem. Otto does come up with one (drown it into the river).

Or, as per the film:

Peter Parker: You once spoke to me about intelligence... you said it was a gift to be used for the greater good...

Doc Ock: A privilege...

Peter Parker: These things have turned you into something else... don't listen to THEM...

Doc Ock: It was my dream...

Peter Parker: Sometimes... to do what's right... we must be steady... and give up the things we desire the most... even our dreams.

Doc Ock: You're right.

[a piece of wreckage gets sucked into the machine. Outside several cars are pulled towards the vortex]

Doc Ock: [to his arms] He's right...

[the tentacles click and whirl, strongly disagreeing with him]

Dr. Otto Octavius: Listen... listen to me now! Listen to ME now!

[He finally acquires his sanity, and control over his tentacles. With a jerk, a tentacle lets go of Peter]

Peter Parker: Now... tell me how to stop it!

Dr. Otto Octavius: It can't be stopped. It's self-sustaining now.

Peter Parker: THINK!

Doc Ock: Unless... the river! Drown it!

Up until that point Parker had no idea how to stop the device. The only reason New York isn't a crater by now is because Parker chooses to engage Otto in a conversation trying to talk sense into him, and it works. The hero's pep talk which villains always ignore in literally every other spider-man movie ever produced, works. Through that conversation, Otto redeems himself and most importantly, comes up with a solution that saves the entire city. Spider-Man's humanity saves the day.

Also: It's easy to miss, but Spidey never works out that to drown the machine would likely kill the person doing it. When Ock tells him the solution, this happens:

[Peter turns to leave, but a tentacle grips him once again... ]

Dr. Otto Octavius: I'll do it.

And by Otto's tone of voice, he's very aware what he's about to do will be his last act on earth. It's why he stops to look at Peter one last time before going through. His "I will not die a monster" is Ock commenting how he's very aware he's about to basically kill himself, but at the very least he will not die knowing that his "dream" cost the lives of the entirety of New York. It's a "I'm going to die, but I'm taking this hideous thing with me."

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#80506: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:31:58 AM

I always disliked how rediciculous Doc Ock's turn to villainry is. The idea that you can have a man say something romantic about his wife, kill that wife, and then you have a free pass to having him team up with evil tentacles to put innocent lives in danger is just, sigh.

The rami films are fun, loads of fun, but I don't feel like it's populated by people. Watching them I always feel like every character beat from every character exists to make Peter's life difficult. Which, sure, that's the point, but it leaves me feeling that none of these characters are people that I could meet or imagine stories about.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80507: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:36:18 AM

Ock doesn't kill his wife though, the device does (it rips out glass directly at her face). Ock even screams a Big "NO!" when it happens.

All his subsequent actions are the A.I of his arms manipulating him so he is clearly not in the correct state of mind, as early in the film he points out he needs a microchip on his back so the arms won't enslave his mind.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#80508: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:36:29 AM

Ock didn't kill his wife it was an accident during the sun thing, and wasn't Ock under the influence of his tentacles?

Just Makima.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80510: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:45:34 AM

But again: it's a cheap and pointless sacrifice. There's no reason other than narrative obligation for Ock to die, and it robs the character of having to meaningfully change in the long-term.

Ock's character arc is already borked by the fact that he's being manipulated by an evil AI in his robot arms. The filmmakers kill off his wife to motivate him but it's not like it matters because the evil AI is driving anyway. Why this film even needed an evil AI is beyond me. The arms cheapen the whole arc, really, because they distance Octavius from his own villainy. "It's not really his fault. The evil AI controlling his mind made him do it."

They fridged his wife to give him a sense of tragedy and then made his villainous agenda about completing his life's work, yet still felt the need to provide the easy cop-out of a corrupting, sinister presence influencing his mind and controlling his actions.

And then, as noted, Peter can't figure out how to solve the problem. A character whose intelligence and savvy is one of his foremost character traits, and in the end, he gives up. He throws up his arms in defeat. He cannot solve this. He's stumped. At the end of his rope. Completely and utterly confounded by Ock's device.

So he instead has to resort to convincing the villain to save the day in his place, which Ock is willing and able to step up and do because he was never actually evil in the first place; the arms made him do it, he's really a cool guy.

Spidey then steps back and lets Ock drive and be the hero for the rest of the finale. Ock steps up, drowns the device, and finds "redemption" in the sense that he didn't actually do anything to make the world any better than it was before, but he was at least able to refrain from causing further harm, setting the scales not back to zero but to at least a less extreme negative than they could have been.

And then he dies. There are a million ways a genius of his caliber could have been put to work to atone for his actions, but no. He dies stupidly, pointlessly, and Narmtastically. While Peter stands back and munches popcorn.

It's a disservice to both of their characters, a disservice to its own arc, and a disservice to the very concept of redemption.

edited 14th Feb '18 11:46:30 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80511: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:50:48 AM

Oh, within the movie in question, Peter develops (in: he takes a tiny stop forward)...and then they reset him two steps back at the start of the next movie and tell the same story AGAIN. In the end, he regresses. This is the main problem with the Raimi movies, it is three time basically the same story with a few tweaks...case to point the honest trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUkdEV9_O_s

The second is only the best because it kind of did the best with the various elements...and even that one is still a very flawed movie.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#80512: Feb 14th 2018 at 11:53:34 AM

I didn't say Ock killed his wife, that was my syntax being ambiguous, I meant the writers could kill his wife a a cheep justification for evil.

Ock works better in that film if you think of him as an interesting monster than as a character.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80513: Feb 14th 2018 at 12:02:51 PM

I mean, didn't you spent a while talking about how it's cool the hero has limits? Spider-Man 2 is a film dedicated to the very concept of superheroes having limits. Spider-Man can't figure out how to beat Ock's device because it's a science-defying piece of engineering (several characters comment it'd earn him the nobel prize for sure if it worked) and Doctor Octopus is a lot older and more experienced with science than Peter. And also he built the damn thing. Spider-Man can't handle the stress of being Spider-Man while trying to have a normal life, Spider-Man can't beat Ock after almost splitting himself in half in the process of trying to stop the train, e.t.c.

Spidey's arc is that he has a dream of his own and he forgoes his responsibilities to pursue that dream. Ock does essentially the same, the arms serving as a corrupting influence but notably the seeds for his villainous trait (obsession with building this doomsday device) were already there before the tentacles got a hold of him: he spends waaay too much time trying to keep the device working rather than shutting it off when it first malfunctions and the tentacles break down his resistance to their evil plan by playing up "the dream".

(God that scene is some fantastic Ham and Cheese in retrospect, it is the most charming of Narms).

It's a external adversity that influences the character to commit morally ambiguous actions until he successfully overcomes it through sheer willlpower. For Parker, that description applies to the sudden faltering of his power (brought about by his mental crisis) while for Ock that description applies to the influence of his tentacles (brought about by his mental crisis), and both characters end up having to overcome these things by the end. It's a mirrored plot, but Ock's mistakes (being far greater) don't get to end happily for him.

Mind you, I agree with you I'd loved to have seen Otto surviving to make amends, but I don't mind the plot the way it went by.

Also: You're remembering it wrong. Peter spends the entirety of Ock's sacrifice holding a giant wall from killing Mary Jane in your typical Load-Bearing Hero fashion, so he can't interfere with Ock's sacrifice even if he wanted to.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#80514: Feb 14th 2018 at 12:03:57 PM

And then, as noted, Peter can't figure out how to solve the problem. A character whose intelligence and savvy is one of his foremost character traits, and in the end, he gives up.

Thinking to appeal to the villain's long-lost humanity doesn't count as an intelligent and savvy solution?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#80515: Feb 14th 2018 at 12:06:13 PM

I've always considered Peter's empathy one of his best assets.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80516: Feb 14th 2018 at 12:23:29 PM

Despite the stumblings of Amazing I liked that the Lizard survived and went to jail.

He has to live with the mess his motive decay caused and also with fulfilling inevitability by killing a Stacy

I also like that despite Peter stopping him he doesn't seem to hold a grudge and instead is protective of him from that pointless cameo

It's something that was done better with Toomes down the line but appreciated anyway

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#80517: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:02:53 PM

Can't we all just hold hands and take joy in the fact that no matter who you are, no matter what Spider-Man film you like, at least it isn't the Japanese Spider-Man tv series.

I've never seen it, but I still think treating Spider-Man as a Henshin Hero is interesting at least.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#80518: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:06:29 PM

I thought the universal unifier was supposed to be everyone's hatred of One More Day?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#80519: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:12:30 PM

Unless you're a quesadilla.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80520: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:19:54 PM

Let's just hate the dancing scene. Or Spider-Man dancing in general. Even though I can see Marvel pulling a dancing Spider-Man off just to show everyone how it is done.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#80521: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:21:54 PM

Confession: I find the dancing scene and subsequent mood whiplash to be ironically hilarious.

This song needs more love.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80522: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:24:15 PM

You're supposed to find the dancing scene to be Peter making a cringeworthy idiot of himself that personally embarrasses you, the viewer, for even watching this movie.

YMMV on whether that comes across exactly as intended or if it went horribly right.

edited 14th Feb '18 1:24:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80523: Feb 14th 2018 at 1:24:34 PM

Speaking of dancing, there are certainly a lot of actors which have rhythm in their blood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWwlFgtiG7g

Everytime I see that vid I begin to think that one day I want Marvel make Musical, just for fun.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#80524: Feb 14th 2018 at 2:14:38 PM

It isn't even the weirdest Spider-Man dancing scene.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#80525: Feb 14th 2018 at 2:20:34 PM

At least y'all are talking about Spider-Man instead of accidentally spoiling Black Panther. This will be the first time in a while I'll actually go into a Marvel film blind.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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