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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
The idea that you could replace a love interest with a sexy lamp and affect the plot in no way
Perhaps even the one from the Christmas Story
edited 14th Feb '18 8:47:58 AM by Bocaj
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
That. The Sexy Lamp is an important female character who exists not to move the plot but to be moved by the male characters around her. She doesn't act upon the story; she is acted upon by the men in her life, moved around and fought over. Her role isn't to do, but merely to be, with other people's arcs revolving around her existence instead of her choices and actions.
edited 14th Feb '18 8:50:44 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Honestly the fact that Raimi had "MJ gets kidnapped" as the climax to all three films makes me cringe. Granted I haven't read every Spider-Man comic ever certainly. But from the ones that I have read, I could count the number of times that "MJ being kidnapped" was the climax to a story on one hand, and still probably have some fingers left over. Heck she's far more likely to HELP resolve the problem if anything.
Yes, she did
◊. Comic book MJ is awesome
◊. Even after the stupid OMD debacle,
she still kicks several flavors of ass
◊,
The Raimi films opted to depict this by having one scene of MJ trying to sneak up on Doc Ock with a blunt instrument only to be effortlessly disarmed and shoved back into her helpless damsel role.
EDIT: Comic book MJ also pieced together that Peter was Spider-Man long before he worked up the courage to tell her, because that's just how awesome she is. I'm really hoping we get to see this side of the character from Michelle in the MCU Spidey films: unraveling Peter's identity and beating the shit out of bad guys who try to damsel her.
edited 14th Feb '18 9:16:50 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.There's just so, so much to like about Mary-Jane Watson and approximately none of it made it into the Raimi films.
edited 14th Feb '18 9:27:12 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.A large part of why the Raimi films did not age well for me personally
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThe Raimi films have Mary Jane with the shy girl next door personality Gwen Stacy sometimes has, while the Amazing films had Gwen Stacy with the Deadpan Snarker hero personality Mary Jan often has, so it's just a giant clusterfuck.
I actually prefer that Spider-Man 2 has Spidey losing his powers for a purely psychosomatic reason. It's one of the refreshing things the movie had at the time (and in a way, still has): Spidey's greatest adversary in the film is less Doc Ock and more his own inner demons haunting him, leading to his powers freaking out and him temporarily quitting being Spider-Man. And the film is in no way concerned with explaining it beyond that.
Scenes like this, despite cheesy, are also pretty neat:
There's some very solid character moments in the film. Peter's whole struggle with his responsibilities as a hero, him having to confront Aunt May about his role in Uncle Ben's death, Doc Ock's subplot about him and his wife, leading up to the "I will not die as a monster" moment which I absolutely love (Alfred Molina sells the living shit out of his anguished "Listen to me now!").
It's a cheesy film and definitely not without flaws, but it has neat character driven moments in it that are actually pretty rare. Homecoming clearly borrowed from its formula by having the Vulture have a sympathetic motivation allá all the Raimi villains (even the ones that usually don't in the comics, like Doc Ock). Homecoming also borrows from Spider-Man 2 a similar concept to the train scene via Spider-Man trying to keep the ship from sinking (which is a relatively rare occasion of a superhero film actually going out of its way to dedicate a long scene to just saving civilians).
Raimi can also build a scene like a motherfucker, and you get scenes like Doc Ock's arms rampaging through the surgery room (which is terrifying) and the fight at the train, e.t.c
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I'd like to point out that Peter losing his powers because of emotional problems was actually a thing that happened in the comics. It's in the first Sinister Six story.
And it isn't like he chose to be depressed.
It borrows it aesthetically, but the meaning of the scene is quite different. Spider-Man 2 used it to show Spider-Man as heroic, doing everything in his power and sacrificing his physical wellbeing to save the lives of people that Doc Ock placed in danger.
Homecoming, meanwhile, uses it to present Peter at his lowest point. The ship's in danger because of his own shortcomings as a hero; he made a judgment call in the heat of the moment, webbing an destabilized Chitauri weapon down to the floor of the ship, and it was a terrible one. When the bomb detonated, it did so in the perfect place to maximize the ensuing devastation.
The ship is Peter's "Stamford" moment. Every person onboard has their life placed in danger not because the Vulture smashed the controls and cackled to himself, but because Peter f*cked up his heroing attempt so hard that he actually made it worse than if he'd never gotten involved.
This abject failure is repeated in his efforts to fix it; his attempt to web the ship together ultimately fails, forcing him to try and hold it together by force - with the clear implication that it's just too much, that the weight of the ship is tearing him apart.
For Spider-Man 2, this is a desperate but triumphant moment. For Homecoming, it's the bottom of the well; the point at which Peter has fallen so far that it doesn't look like he'll ever be able to come back from it. Setting him up, naturally, to come back from it in the third act.
edited 14th Feb '18 10:08:23 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The train scene actually has a similar but downplayed meaning to the boat one, because it ends with Doctor Octopus easily capturing Spider-Man and bringing him to Harry where he'd have actually died if Harry didn't hesitate upon seeing Parker's face. And the reason Ock captures him without any effort is because he spent all his energy stopping the train, so in true martyr fashion Spidey essentially sacrifices himself to save the people on the train, making him easy prey for Ock. It's a classic martyrdom moment for Spider-Man (which is the central theme of film). It's a moment of humanity for our hero, showing that even he has limits, as well as one of selflessness.
Incidentally, what you have described about the thematic weight of the boat scene is essentially what Parker losing his powers stands for in Spider-Man 2. It's Parker's lowest point displaying his own shortcomings as a hero, the stress and his inner demons getting to him, and the film pretty unambiguously portrays this as a bad thing (Peter passing by a mugging and ignoring it, the crime rate spiking up, the scene a man dies in a fire because Spidey wasn't there to save him, Doctor Octopus even getting as far with his plan as he did). It's a understandable and human reaction on Parker's part, but it's wrong and the film doesn't pretend it isn't.
The ultimate message of Spider-Man 2 is...well..."with great power comes great responsibility" and you can't really escape from that. It follows in a proud martyrdom tradition of superheroes where the message essentially goes by way of Kant into "It might absolutely destroy you, but you must be a superhero because it's the right thing to do".
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Exactly. When Spider-man acts badly in Spider-man 2, there are consequences. When he does so throughout the Amazing Spiderman films, the film rarely calls him out on it, when it's not trying its hardest to make the bad things that happen to people not his fault so he doesn't have to face consequences.
This article is probably the best review I've read of it, where he goes into detail on why the Peter of TASM is the real problem: http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2012/07/06/film-crit-hulk-smash-the-amazing-spider-man-has-99-problems-but-an-uncle-be
I don't think anyone will deny that the Raimi films have flaws and I sure as heck won't defend its version of Mary Jane.
That does not mean they still don't kick the stuffing out of the Amazing films.
edited 14th Feb '18 10:31:52 AM by LordVatek
This song needs more love.I kind of hoped that we could end this particular discussion now that Home-coming blows both takes out of the water. It is largely a matter of taste. If you are satisfied with a really corny comic book movie, you'll most likely prefer the Raimi version. If you want to see some character development and a love interest which is more than just a sexy lamp, there is a chance TAS is more your thing. Let's hope that Homecoming continues to combine the best elements of both paired with better villains (the Vulture was a great start) and a bigger world with more supporting characters.
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I still love Tony's dismantling speech against Peter after the boat scene. That remains among my favorite moments in the whole film, because of the way it pertains both to Tony's character arc as well as Spider-Man's theme of responsibility, combining them into a double whammy of how hard Peter'd screwed up.
"What if someone had died out there? Changes the story, doesn't it? Because that's on you. ...and what if you died out there? Because I feel that's on me."
For a film that goes out of its way to avoiding Batman's parents dying again, JESUS CHRIST WE GET IT having Uncle Ben get shot for a fourth time, the spector of Ben's shooting still manages to have its way with the arc, doesn't it?
edited 14th Feb '18 10:53:53 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I have literally spent two posts talking about how I (and a lot of people) dig the Raimi films (or more specifically, SP 2) for the character driven approach. SP 2 is cheesy but also character driven to a surprising point compared to most comic book films. As I said, the primary enemy of Spider-Man is his own inner demons and the way the day is saved is by talking down the villain into redeeming himself. It's probably the most humane Spider-Man ever put to screen. The only other movies with a comparative logistic of "the primary problem is the hero's own inner demons rather than the villain" are The Dark Knight and Civil War.
The more obvious flaws of the Raimi films are that they are, despite its good intentions regarding developing the characters and exploring some mildly profound philosophical themes, as subtle as a ton of bricks and overdramatic to the point of absurdity (leading to Parker being considered whiny and the film itself often veering into cheesy territory) and some shaky writing for love interests.
My take on the situation has always been that Spider-Man 2 is a better film in terms of cinematic construction, in no small part because Sam Raimi has a more auteur approach to things. Homecoming is a better Spider-Man film, chiefly because its Spider-Man knocks Maguire out of the water.
I'm so-so whether Vulture is better than Doc Ock. I mean, in terms of fidelity, Vulture has the cake, but Ock might have it in terms of sheer character construction. Which lines up just right with what I said about film and adaptation.
edited 14th Feb '18 10:58:11 AM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Huh. Musing on it, Homecoming rerained from being the fifth time a chunk of the plot centered around Uncle Ben getting shot, actually. Now that I think about it, before Homecoming, Amazing Spider-Man 2 was the only Spider-film that wasn't at least in part about Uncle Ben's shooting. Uncle Ben's death is all over the Raimi trilogy. The first film, it provides Peter's motivation and drive. The second has Ghost Uncle Ben and confronting May about Peter's role in his death. The third features new information coming out about Uncle Ben's killer not being who Peter thought.
The whole f*cking trilogy is dedicated to Uncle Ben in one way or another.
I mean, he talks the villain into committing suicide. That scene's always just been Narm to me. "I wlil not die a monster. (promptly kills himself and dies a monster)"
If you want to talk "most humane Spider-Man", I gotta go with Tom Holland leaping into the fires of the Vulture's exploding wingsuit to pull him out and save his life.
edited 14th Feb '18 11:00:28 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub."It's a matter of taste, but the version I prefer is obviously better" is basically what you said here. Not that I really begrudge you your opinion, but if you want to be conciliatory this isn't exactly the best way to go about it.
And yeah, I've more or less agreed with FHC's take on the ASM series since day one.
edited 14th Feb '18 11:02:00 AM by Draghinazzo
The problem with Raimi Peter is that I DON'T think that he truly progresses as a character. They tease like he will, but then the next film basically resets everything. Peter feels little different in the third film than he did in the first.
And Raimi does that resetting thing in other major situations as well. Also I disagree strongly that Raimi's Peter faces more "consequences" for his mistakes than Marc Webb's Peter does.

Sexy Lamp?
have a listen and have a link to my discord server