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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80201: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:53:44 PM

It would've helped some, but yes - it would've still be problematic. Conceptually, he's a hard character to sell all around.

That fact that it was botched so immensely on top of that doesn't help matters.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#80202: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:20:29 PM

A good way to handle it would have been to tone down Danny's exceptionalness.

Instead of making him a master of Kun Lun's martial arts, have him be just an average student, though Kun Lun's training is so good that even an average student is an incredible badass to the rest of the world.

And while having the Iron Fist gives him a special power, he doesn't necessarily have to get it because he was the only one who proved himself worthy or anything like that. You could easily create a backstory where Danny, desperate to leave Kun Lun and return home, manages to grab the source of the Iron Fist's power while no one was looking, because only the Immortal Weapons are allowed to leave the city at will.

The core problem with the Mighty Whitey trope isn't that a white guy goes to a foreign culture and learns how to do some of the cool stuff they do there. It's that a white guy goes to a foreign culture and becomes better at doing all of their cool stuff than any of the natives, carrying the implication that his whiteness made him naturally better at it. If you had Danny just be a middling martial artist (again, by Kun Lun's exceptionally high standards), and had his Iron Fist powers and title be something he cheated his way into, rather than an honor bestowed on him, than a lot of that is averted.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#80203: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:22:38 PM

That reminds me of what I heard about Immortal Iron Fist from Mighty Whitey trope list, apparently it did that. Like there are other "Immortal Weapons" than Iron Fist and most of them are apparently more talented than him.

No idea if they did it well though since YMMV still mentions series' concept being prolematic

edited 8th Feb '18 10:24:51 PM by SpookyMask

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#80204: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:29:56 PM

I recall a number of writers and bloggers arguing that making Danny Rand or Stephen Strange Asian-American could've added a new angle of them reconnecting and developing a new appreciation for their heritage. Particularly with Strange and his initial distaste for anything that is not science.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#80205: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:43:44 PM

Isn't that the trope of "minority character's story HAS to be about their race" thing though?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#80206: Feb 9th 2018 at 12:02:16 AM

Perhaps, but a film about a foreigner coming to another country to learn a native skill is going to be about race inevitably. Both Iron Fist’s and Doctor Strange’s attempts to NOT make their films about race, despite centering around a Mighty Whitey, fell flat.

edited 9th Feb '18 12:02:43 AM by Tuckerscreator

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80207: Feb 9th 2018 at 12:11:58 AM

Honestly if you just didn't make him the greatest ever Iron Fist - just a guy who turned up at a monastery trying to find himself, and then learning some martial arts and philosophy, and then trying to do some good with that - I don't think it would necessarily be Mighty Whitey.

You could even make that into a thing - maybe his powers are essentially jury-rigged because the philosophy they depend on is about detachment from the world, or something.

Quite frankly though, if I were Marvel I would have just skirted round the entire issue and instead of a filthy rich white guy make him a filthy rich black guy or filthy rich Hispanic guy. I mean, it's not like the Defenders had some sort of quota of white people to fulfill, and it still keeps the central theme of the material world/spiritual world dichotomy.

I would rather the Asian member of the defenders be someone not related to martial arts in a big way, since I think that's kind of stereotypical. Maybe they can pick up Amadeus Cho as the team brainbox or something.

edited 9th Feb '18 12:18:51 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80208: Feb 9th 2018 at 1:55:47 AM

I actually think that part of the reason why Danny kind of sucks as Iron Fist is exactly because they wanted to sidestep the Mighty White Trope and went overboard with it.

And they should have made him native american. But they didn't, and I feel it is kind of unfair towards the actor to pile that much hatedom on the character.

edited 9th Feb '18 1:56:43 AM by Swanpride

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#80209: Feb 9th 2018 at 6:28:22 AM

So, I just came across a really interesting article talks about how MCU and DCEU movies perform at the box office comparatively. While mostly focus on how DCEU movies are underperforming compare to Marvel and the brand is tarnish, there is one interesting piece of information from the article:

"To put it simply, it appears the "floor" for MCU box office performance is rising, while the "ceiling" for performance is lowering. The degree of rising and falling isn't huge, but it's notable and suggests that, going forward, MCU releases will probably perform no lower than $600-700 million, and no higher than $1-1.3 billion."

So, the audience for MCU is starting to solidified and settled in the box office. Which mean that while the franchise won't have record-breaking number like The Avengers, it won't have dud like The Incredible Hulk and Captain America: The First Avenger.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80210: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:03:13 AM

I dunno, considering the record breaking number of views the Infinity War trailer got, I could see it surpassing The Avengers in box office and getting 1.6, maybe 1.7 billion.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80211: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:18:53 AM

[up][up] That is pretty much the ball park, but I wouldn't be surprised it Black Panther and/or Infinity war puts this in question. But one has to consider that there are only so many screens in the world and only so much money to be made.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80212: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:27:59 AM

Question: how did Iron Man 3 make more money than any MCU film not named "Avengers", even surpassing Civil War? Did it really have THAT much hype behind it? I like it fine, but it's far ahead of MCU films that I feel like had better hype and marketing, as well as much less controversy after-the-fact.

edited 9th Feb '18 7:28:26 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80213: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:34:30 AM

Two reasons.

  1. As vocal as many fans are about hating Iron Man, being over Iron Man, or otherwise not caring about Iron Man anymore, he's still the MCU's rock-star character guaranteed to rake in big money for any film he appears in. People on the internet have a Broken Base about Tony, but casual movie-goers f*cking love him with a passion that cannot be quenched. RDJ's flawless performance has a lot to do with that.
  2. Iron Man 3 also had the advantage that it was riding high on the success of the first Avengers film, being the first MCU movie to come out in its wake.

edited 9th Feb '18 7:35:41 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80214: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:53:54 AM

It was also the third movie of the franchise, those always make the most money. Add the push of Tony being the most popular of the characters (especially back in 2013) and the success of the Avengers, and you have an automatic hit.

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#80215: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:54:33 AM

Third reason:

The Mandarin seems to be Tony's greatest enemy, and the ads pushed him as the big bad of the movie. You had to actually watch it or read a post-viewing review of it to find out the hype there was a lie.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80216: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:55:25 AM

Not gonna lie... I actually really like how they did the Mandarin in IM 3.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80217: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:57:35 AM

If we get into this argument again I'm hurling a Chinese broadsword at someone.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80218: Feb 9th 2018 at 7:59:38 AM

That'll be pretty difficult, aren't Dao curved? They don't look like they're throwable.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80219: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:01:48 AM

[up] That's why it is so brilliant. You'll never see it coming.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80220: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:11:10 AM

Does the average movie goer know that the Mandarin is supposedly Iron Man's greatest enemy?

Because I didn't know that initially and I'm not the average movie goer.

I've read at least three comics.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80221: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:18:55 AM

I actually misremembered. Mandarin throws a Jian at Stark.

No matter. I will hurl a Dao and I will make it work so help me God.

edited 9th Feb '18 8:19:23 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80222: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:19:37 AM

Live your dreams

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#80223: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:22:08 AM

The only reason I knew about the Mandarin was because of the old Iron Man cartoon.

This song needs more love.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#80224: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:49:43 AM

> Does the average movie goer know that the Mandarin is supposedly Iron Man's greatest enemy?

Averge Movie goer here,I thought Iron Man's greatest enemy was Tony Stark

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80225: Feb 9th 2018 at 8:54:58 AM

You're not wrong.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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