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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80151: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:10:47 PM

@Spooky Mask Yes, I do realize that there aren't the same situations. My point was that saying that "willingness to Race Lift is proof that you are a better storyteller than if you didn't" is absolutely laughable. They could have kept the Mightey Whitey trope and done something interesting with it, even if they didn't in the end. Stuff can be deconstructed or reconstructed and just because something looks problematic at first glance doesn't mean it actually is. There's something rather disingenuous in not being willing to give something a chance right off the bat and then saying "I told you it would suck!" afterwards.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:13:15 PM by GKG

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80152: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:12:23 PM

My point was that saying that "willingness to Race Lift is proof that you are a better storyteller than if you didn't" is absolutely laughable.

Good thing that isn't what I said, then!

They could have kept the Mightey Whitey trope and done something interesting with it, even if they didn't in the end.

They could have done a lot of things. Why are we defending what they did with "well, they could have done something completely different?"

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#80153: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:16:12 PM

Yes, I do realize that there aren't the same situations. My point was that saying that "willingness to Race Lift is proof that you are a better storyteller than if you didn't" is absolutely laughable.

You're kind of oversimplifying what the argument is. It's not about whether being willing to race lift by default makes you a better storyteller, it's that in this instance it would have helped contribute to a better story, even if the show itself was still mostly rubbish it would have helped get some of the stink off.

They could have kept the Mightey Whitey trope and done something interesting with it, even if they didn't in the end. Stuff can be deconstructed or reconstructed and just because something looks problematic at first glance doesn't mean it actually is.

It's kind of difficult to really do anything with the concept of Mighty Whitey that would invalidate the criticisms being made about it. Because centering white people while borrowing other countries' cultures as a backdrop is basically the problem, and it's difficult to not do that unless you simply have a non-white protagonist. Doing a scathing critique of the concept might be something worth considering, but Marvel was never going to realistically do that because it would effectively invalidate the character.

It's a rigged game. The only way to "win" is not to play.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:17:45 PM by Draghinazzo

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#80154: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:17:17 PM

If this is just about "Complaining about shows before they are released" do note that in this case at least complaints ended up being accurate.

Sure, sometimes show runners keep tight lid on nature of show so that everyone is blown away and turns out their complaints were completely wrong, but that doesn't mean you can't criticize something's concept. Heck, its kind of like if author says "My work is much better than audience thinks because audience is interpreting my intentions wrong!", its really bad argument since it means author didn't communicate their ideas to the audience well.

Sooo basically, criticism about show before show has been released can be considered criticism of what show runners communicate show to be about to the audience beforehand and accuracy of that criticism is based on accuracy of how well show runners did that communication. If that makes sense, I'm feeling really drowsy and am gonna go to sleep after posting this, should stop writing while being tired as hell

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80155: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:17:29 PM

The thing is you probably could do something interesting with confronting the idea that a martial arts chosen one is an entitled white dude.

You could also have cast an actual Tibetan because its not like the MCU is suffering an overabundance of representation. And you could still find interesting things to say obviously.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80156: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:19:46 PM

I'm not defending the show, necessarily. But not being willing to give a show a chance due to one single change (or absence of change) right off the bat, without even considering the possibility that it might be more than it seems at first glance isn't right. Just because it doesn't always is more than it seems doesn't make a dismissive, flippant attitude more justifiable.

It's like punching a random man in the street and then discovering afterwards that he beats his wife: you still punched a random man in the street and it doesn't make it more right in hindsight.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80157: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:19:54 PM

Pretty much what Spooky Mask said. Every criticism of Iron Fist was made based off of all the information we had to work with at the time, including media's long history of dealing with negative tropes precisely like these ones.

To be perfectly frank, we had no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. They hadn't earned it.

[up] So you think that giving preemptive criticism based off of the well-established concept that we knew they had chosen not to alter is equivalent to assaulting a random stranger on the street?

edited 8th Feb '18 12:21:18 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80158: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:23:45 PM

I think I said while Iron Fist was still in production that there would be absolutely zero downsides or unfortunate implications from making Danny Hispanic, and I stand by that.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#80159: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:24:16 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80160: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:24:41 PM

"To be perfectly frank, we had no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. They hadn't earned it. "

In other, more honest words: "I was just waiting for a reason to be a dick and feel good about it".

"I think I said while Iron Fist was still in production that there would be absolutely zero downsides or unfortunate implications from making Danny Hispanic, and I stand by that. "

That's dumb. If people think the Mightey Whitey trope is wrong because it makes a stranger of another race better than the people who were already there and should by all means know better than them, switching the race to another one that is STILL not the race being "rescued" doesn't make it any less offensive. Unless the trope is bad ONLY if it's a white guy.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:27:07 PM by GKG

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80161: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:25:19 PM

Gee, that wasn't very polite of you. By your logic, people should now ignore everything you say.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#80162: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:29:38 PM

In other, more honest words: "I was just waiting for a reason to be a dick and feel good about it".

Seriously, I have no idea why people are harping on you.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80163: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:30:28 PM

[up][up][up]It is. The White part is kind of important to the Mighty Whitey trope, and it's rooted in white people dominating other cultures throughout all of history through violence and subjugation.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:30:58 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80164: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:31:40 PM

[up][up]You brought the buzzwords into the conversation.

[up]So... It's fine for Asian/African/(insert ethnicity here) people to be completely clueless when it comes to solving a problem that concerns them, if the Chosen One who comes to solve it despite having no prior experience with it isn't White? Because that's the offensive part of the trope: that the person of another race is somehow capable of solving everything through the power of their Otherness. Do you even get why people dislike the trope?

edited 8th Feb '18 12:35:54 PM by GKG

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80165: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:32:40 PM

Buzzwords like "identity politics?"

I've been making actual points and injecting nuance. I would appreciate it if you would at least try to do the same.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#80166: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:36:35 PM

I'm not defending the show, necessarily. But not being willing to give a show a chance due to one single change (or absence of change) right off the bat, without even considering the possibility that it might be more than it seems at first glance isn't right. Just because it doesn't always is more than it seems doesn't make a dismissive, flippant attitude more justifiable.

1. This isn't just based on Iron Fist itself though. Marvel had already dropped the ball on the asian representation issue in DD S2 already. This was a continuation of a trend.

2. People weren't necessarily saying the show was going to be the worst thing ever, they were criticizing the concept of the show. It being more well-written and less sloppy than it turned out to be wouldn't automatically invalidate that complaint.

You brought the buzzwords into the conversation.

I don't mean to be rude, but you came in here basically peddling a conspiracy theory that Black Panther got inflated scores because of "identity politics" (which totally isn't a buzzword, am I right?) and overall been very disingenuous. In light of that, your complaints about people's dismissiveness (as well as your fixation on other people's politeness) kinda fall flat.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:40:36 PM by Draghinazzo

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#80167: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:36:54 PM

Not this discussion again....

Iron Fist got more flak than it deserved, but I think that the fact that the reviewers were working off the first six episodes of the show and not the stronger second half paired with the high standard Jessica Jones set and Luke Cage at least still met in the fist half of the show (not in the second half) lead to Iron Fist being derided more than, let's say, the same show would have been if it had been released as part of the CW line-up or were a stand alone show with little expectation attached to it.

And yes, a few reviewers didn't WANT the show to succeed, but I don't think that they would have had enough sway if the show had been great.

We don't have numbers, but the show was watched enough that it got a second season, and it has its fans - me being one of them. Despite its flaws, I actually enjoyed it more than Daredevil (I kind of can't stand Matt and the underlying sexism and racism in the show) and Luke Cage (which started strong but really went off the rails in the second half of the show). Note, I said I enjoyed it more, not that I think that it is better on an objective level.

Anyway, there will be a second season, no matter what the critics said.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80168: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:37:28 PM

Black Panther is now certified fresh on RT with 80 reviews and counting standing at a comfy 99%.

There's still that one guy with one negative review. He's still the only one.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#80169: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:42:01 PM

Brave man, taking a stand on the rising tide of punchlessness in superhero movies.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#80170: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:43:30 PM

It's also not massively overinflated because to say so would be to fundamentally misunderstand how Rotten Tomato scores even work. A movie that's universally considered a barely-6/10 piece of functional mediocrity by all 100% of reviewers would have a higher RT score (in this case, than a film that's %) considered a full-on 10/10 by 90% of the audience and a 4/10 by the remaining 10% for heavily subjective reasons (in this case, a 90%), even though conventional logic would dictate the latter the much better movie.

edited 8th Feb '18 1:08:51 PM by AlleyOop

GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80171: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:44:39 PM

I used "identity politics" after someone accused me of calling the critics "ess-jay-doubleyews" when I had done nothing of the sort. I hadn't used that particular buzzword. I was mostly being cheeky.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80172: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:51:44 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#80173: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:51:55 PM

[up][up] I feel like you were skirting on it, particularly when you said that Ghost in the Shell was subject to "pointless, manufactured controversy", which is pretty tantamount to saying "the SJ Ws were pissy about it".

edited 8th Feb '18 12:52:18 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80174: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:52:26 PM

[up][up][up] Cool. To repeat myself, do you have an argument for why the #AAIronFist (it's short for Asian-American Iron Fist, in case you didn't know) movement was bad and wrong beyond "someone was a bit snarky on Twitter once" and "engaging in any sort of preemptive criticism of a story's narrative conceit is wrong," or is this all you're giving us?

edited 8th Feb '18 12:52:46 PM by RBluefish

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#80175: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:53:51 PM

It's kind of difficult to really do anything with the concept of Mighty Whitey that would invalidate the criticisms being made about it.

The only nuanced take I’ve seen on Mighty Whitey recently was Hank from Kong: Skull Island, who I worried would be depicted as the Apocalypse Now archetype of “white man who has tamed jungle natives”, but was instead played more like “kooky stranded guy that the villagers let stay with them just as their wacky neighbor”.


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