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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Yeah, I agree that - much like Batman - Panther being able to find success in implausible ways is part of his charm. A friend and I have a running joke about how he was often better at the others at random things in Earths Mightiest Heroes for wonderfully silly reasons.
As for Kamala - I want her in a movie, not a tv show. That character deserves the top line of exposure.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:27:38 AM by KnownUnknown
I don't find the "Sue" label a useful one in general anyway, because the term has become sufficiently loaded through constant hijacking that it carries too much baggage to retain much meaning. There are far less imprecise ways of making one's point when criticizing a character, and ones that are less likely to result in the argument derailing into "what is a Sue."
That said, considering how many white characters there are in the MCU who meet the "Sue" criteria, I'm not exactly going to jump on T'Challa's case here. One of the reasons that the "Sue" label has lost much of its meaning is due to the selective manner in which it tends to be applied, in which white male heroes are subject to notably less scrutiny than more marginalized ones.
"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."I don't think we should see it as Movie > TV show - the two formats have different advantages and disadvantages for storytelling. I think there's a good reason why all the street level superheroes ended up in TV shows.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I see it as Movie > TV Show because that's explicitly the way Marvel Studios (and Disney overall, but Marvel was doing that before the buyout) treats it's tv shows vs it's movies.
If Marvel took steps to have the TV Shows have a comparable level of relevance to the verse, and overall exposure to the audience as their movies (like, arguably, Star Wars has been doing), I wouldn't have a problem with it.
The Netflix shows are the exception so far, but after the way their effort in pushing AOS and ABC's shows died down to basically nothing once they latched onto something else, I'm cynical about how long that tide is going to last either.
That they put all the street level characters there is a noticeable part of the problem. They treat tv as a dumping ground for characters they don't care to build a movie around. So we get a tv show with Luke Cage, but we're probably not going to ever see - say - a New Avengers adaptation. And that's unfortunate.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:34:59 AM by KnownUnknown
The key disadvantage with Ms. Marvel being on TV is that a TV show is likely not gonna have the required effects budget. We've seen with Marvel's shows in the past that the most successful ones (namely the Netflix ones) are the ones that feature characters who are very easy to do on a TV budget.
They attempted a superpowered X-Men-style team show with the Inhumans, to catastrophic results.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:32:06 AM by comicwriter
So foreign markets are saying it's another Marvel movie and domestic markets are giving it rave reviews?
Yeah, that sounds about right. "Just another Marvel movie" and "Rave reviews" aren't mutually exclusive, is the thing. Marvel usually knocks it out of the park and scores critical acclaim.
- Captain America: Civil War - 91% Certified Fresh out of 359 reviews.
- Spider-Man: Homecoming - 92% Certified Fresh out of 312 reviews.
- Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - 83% Certified Fresh out of 334 reviews.
- Thor: Ragnarok - 92% Certified Fresh out of 321 reviews.
So, the claim is that there's some hidden agenda because Black Panther has 99% freshness out of 80 critics counted thus far because foreign critics say it's just another Marvel movie, but that argument doesn't hold water because this kind of critical acclaim is normal for "just another Marvel movie".
edited 8th Feb '18 11:33:07 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The general complaint seems to be that T'Challa is too good at everything. He has more money that every other superhero combined, more advanced technology than Stark, better magic than Thor, his suit is nigh-indestructible, he's stronger than Captain America, and he's also somehow a good enough combatant to get Silver Surfer in an arm lock. It should be mentioned that whether he gets accused of being a Gary Stu is Depending on the Writer, apparently some writers write him way crazier than others.
The main difference with the Netfliix shows is Netflix's own enthusiasm for the shows it makes. They've made some crap, but they've continued to support some shows that I'm pretty sure didn't get them the most views, The directness of their revenue stream means they can afford to support niche audiences, since that guarantees those viewers— it's not like a Netflix subscription costs much.
AOS's problem isn't that it didn't have Marvel's support at first, but rather that ABC presumably can't find the advertisers they would need to buy space on it to justify what had previously been a fairly significant budget per episode.
I don't know who would have the budget for a live action Ms Marvel series, sadly. I believe she's already got some animated appearances lined up in Marvel Rising.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:43:23 AM by Unsung
Re: The Finn Jones thing.
No, the person wasn't being "polite". Beginning the conversation with "...are you for real" after he posted a tweet isn't being "polite". Don't even try to pretend this is being "polite". Then the person continued the conversation in the most dismissive way possible, with “that's great and all but you do see why Danny Rand being white is problematic right?” and then "I don't doubt it. I'm just saying an Asian Danny Rand could've made an even bigger impact but sure. Do you." This just bleeds dismissiveness and contempt.
He rightfully pointed out that people hadn't seen the show and that they should wait to see it before formulating criticisms. But yeah, let's get on his case for it for sure. Also Iron Fist had been using its admitedly rocky start to do commentary about racial and cultural issues in America, which is also something the show could have done, but then again I don't think most of the critics had ever cracked an IF comic open.
I want to say that I think most useful definition for the "Sue" character is a character that when they get introduced to the story/plot twist and warp the story/plot to be about them and how awesome/evil/tragic/whatever they are <_< Like whole thing revolves around them to detriment of other characters and actual story.
I think it's less that T'Challa had been written as a Sue in the comics and more that Wakanda was commonly made a Suetopia - and sometimes, an asshole Suetopia (like when they discovered the cure for cancer and wouldn't share).
edited 8th Feb '18 11:41:52 AM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Someone has to be best.
But despite how amazing he is in all other respects, T'Challa does have his flaws.
Like constantly neglecting his kingdom to teach high school in New York for some reason.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThe criticism of Danny Rand being a white character is a problem with the concept and has nothing to do with execution. There was nothing the show could have done that would have made that any different.
Lo and behold when the show came out it was pretty much exactly what people expected. It was also probably the worst of the Defenders shows.
I was responding to the assertion that Finn Jones was being the asshole in the convo that he had on Twitter that led to him leaving it, when a casual glance at the actual facts will show that no, he was far more respectful about it than his interlocutor. That's, as you might call it, whitewashing that person's unjustified aggressivity and rudeness. Whether you like it or not "watch the show before you criticize it" is and will always be a very strong argument.
If Danny Rand had been turned Asian, people would have bitched about the Asian actor getting the shittiest Marvel show. Also that person was wrong.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:46:04 AM by GKG
A lot of T'Challa's reputation for Suedom I've noticed tends from people getting secondhand info from stories they've never actually read. For instance, everyone cites the arm bar scene, but literally a page or two later the Surfer admits that he let Panther get him into a hold because he wanted to hear his side of the argument before jumping into another Let's You and Him Fight conflict.
There are quite literally entire pages of examples on Power Creep, Power Seep and Popularity Power showing weaker characters pulling off bullshit victories. They just are never brought up as much as Panther's.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:45:06 AM by comicwriter
People complain about Doom constantly.
Because he's a supervillain.
They're always saying stuff like 'oh i wish doom would stop shooting buildings into space'
Forever liveblogging the Avengers

The basic premise with T’Challa is “King Batman” - that sort of required a certain level of Sueness (if that indeed has meaningful context here).
You shouldn’t run from that with T’Challa - being extremely awesome is who he is.
edited 8th Feb '18 11:31:22 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!