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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#80101: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:22:04 AM

The basic premise with T’Challa is “King Batman” - that sort of required a certain level of Sueness (if that indeed has meaningful context here).

You shouldn’t run from that with T’Challa - being extremely awesome is who he is.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:31:22 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80102: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:24:47 AM

Yeah, I agree that - much like Batman - Panther being able to find success in implausible ways is part of his charm. A friend and I have a running joke about how he was often better at the others at random things in Earths Mightiest Heroes for wonderfully silly reasons.

As for Kamala - I want her in a movie, not a tv show. That character deserves the top line of exposure.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:27:38 AM by KnownUnknown

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#80103: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:26:12 AM

Why not both. Movie to start. Tv show for continuing misadventures.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80104: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:26:50 AM

I don't find the "Sue" label a useful one in general anyway, because the term has become sufficiently loaded through constant hijacking that it carries too much baggage to retain much meaning. There are far less imprecise ways of making one's point when criticizing a character, and ones that are less likely to result in the argument derailing into "what is a Sue."

That said, considering how many white characters there are in the MCU who meet the "Sue" criteria, I'm not exactly going to jump on T'Challa's case here. One of the reasons that the "Sue" label has lost much of its meaning is due to the selective manner in which it tends to be applied, in which white male heroes are subject to notably less scrutiny than more marginalized ones.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80105: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:27:02 AM

[up][up][up]I understand that perspective, but I would love to get more time with Kamala; a season long arc with plenty of slice of life screen time. You don’t get to see as much in the constraints of a 2 hour movie.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:27:52 AM by wisewillow

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80106: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:27:27 AM

I don't think we should see it as Movie > TV show - the two formats have different advantages and disadvantages for storytelling. I think there's a good reason why all the street level superheroes ended up in TV shows.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80107: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:28:25 AM

I see it as Movie > TV Show because that's explicitly the way Marvel Studios (and Disney overall, but Marvel was doing that before the buyout) treats it's tv shows vs it's movies.

If Marvel took steps to have the TV Shows have a comparable level of relevance to the verse, and overall exposure to the audience as their movies (like, arguably, Star Wars has been doing), I wouldn't have a problem with it.

The Netflix shows are the exception so far, but after the way their effort in pushing AOS and ABC's shows died down to basically nothing once they latched onto something else, I'm cynical about how long that tide is going to last either.

That they put all the street level characters there is a noticeable part of the problem. They treat tv as a dumping ground for characters they don't care to build a movie around. So we get a tv show with Luke Cage, but we're probably not going to ever see - say - a New Avengers adaptation. And that's unfortunate.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:34:59 AM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#80108: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:31:47 AM

The key disadvantage with Ms. Marvel being on TV is that a TV show is likely not gonna have the required effects budget. We've seen with Marvel's shows in the past that the most successful ones (namely the Netflix ones) are the ones that feature characters who are very easy to do on a TV budget.

They attempted a superpowered X-Men-style team show with the Inhumans, to catastrophic results.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:32:06 AM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#80109: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:32:28 AM

So foreign markets are saying it's another Marvel movie and domestic markets are giving it rave reviews?

Yeah, that sounds about right. "Just another Marvel movie" and "Rave reviews" aren't mutually exclusive, is the thing. Marvel usually knocks it out of the park and scores critical acclaim.

  • Captain America: Civil War - 91% Certified Fresh out of 359 reviews.
  • Spider-Man: Homecoming - 92% Certified Fresh out of 312 reviews.
  • Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - 83% Certified Fresh out of 334 reviews.
  • Thor: Ragnarok - 92% Certified Fresh out of 321 reviews.

So, the claim is that there's some hidden agenda because Black Panther has 99% freshness out of 80 critics counted thus far because foreign critics say it's just another Marvel movie, but that argument doesn't hold water because this kind of critical acclaim is normal for "just another Marvel movie".

edited 8th Feb '18 11:33:07 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80110: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:35:04 AM

The general complaint seems to be that T'Challa is too good at everything. He has more money that every other superhero combined, more advanced technology than Stark, better magic than Thor, his suit is nigh-indestructible, he's stronger than Captain America, and he's also somehow a good enough combatant to get Silver Surfer in an arm lock. It should be mentioned that whether he gets accused of being a Gary Stu is Depending on the Writer, apparently some writers write him way crazier than others.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#80111: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:35:21 AM

The main difference with the Netfliix shows is Netflix's own enthusiasm for the shows it makes. They've made some crap, but they've continued to support some shows that I'm pretty sure didn't get them the most views, The directness of their revenue stream means they can afford to support niche audiences, since that guarantees those viewers— it's not like a Netflix subscription costs much.

AOS's problem isn't that it didn't have Marvel's support at first, but rather that ABC presumably can't find the advertisers they would need to buy space on it to justify what had previously been a fairly significant budget per episode.

I don't know who would have the budget for a live action Ms Marvel series, sadly. I believe she's already got some animated appearances lined up in Marvel Rising.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:43:23 AM by Unsung

GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80112: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:37:55 AM

Re: The Finn Jones thing.

No, the person wasn't being "polite". Beginning the conversation with "...are you for real" after he posted a tweet isn't being "polite". Don't even try to pretend this is being "polite". Then the person continued the conversation in the most dismissive way possible, with “that's great and all but you do see why Danny Rand being white is problematic right?” and then "I don't doubt it. I'm just saying an Asian Danny Rand could've made an even bigger impact but sure. Do you." This just bleeds dismissiveness and contempt.

He rightfully pointed out that people hadn't seen the show and that they should wait to see it before formulating criticisms. But yeah, let's get on his case for it for sure. Also Iron Fist had been using its admitedly rocky start to do commentary about racial and cultural issues in America, which is also something the show could have done, but then again I don't think most of the critics had ever cracked an IF comic open.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#80113: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:39:07 AM

I want to say that I think most useful definition for the "Sue" character is a character that when they get introduced to the story/plot twist and warp the story/plot to be about them and how awesome/evil/tragic/whatever they are <_< Like whole thing revolves around them to detriment of other characters and actual story.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#80114: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:40:08 AM

[up][up]Tone policing is a great response to legitimate critiques. Oh, and implying that either a) criticism only comes from people who aren’t Real Fans who Know the comics or b) one should always wait and see before critiquing a flawed premise. A+ response.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:42:07 AM by wisewillow

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80115: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:41:28 AM

I think it's less that T'Challa had been written as a Sue in the comics and more that Wakanda was commonly made a Suetopia - and sometimes, an asshole Suetopia (like when they discovered the cure for cancer and wouldn't share).

edited 8th Feb '18 11:41:52 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#80116: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:41:45 AM

I would rather focus on the fact that she was right and her criticisms were completely valid both before and after the show's premiere than the fact that she opened with a bit of justified snark, but that's just me.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80117: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:41:56 AM

Someone has to be best.

But despite how amazing he is in all other respects, T'Challa does have his flaws.

Like constantly neglecting his kingdom to teach high school in New York for some reason.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#80118: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:43:08 AM

He rightfully pointed out that people hadn't seen the show and that they should wait to see it before formulating criticisms.

The criticism of Danny Rand being a white character is a problem with the concept and has nothing to do with execution. There was nothing the show could have done that would have made that any different.

Lo and behold when the show came out it was pretty much exactly what people expected. It was also probably the worst of the Defenders shows.

GKG Since: Nov, 2012
#80119: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:43:42 AM

[up]I was responding to the assertion that Finn Jones was being the asshole in the convo that he had on Twitter that led to him leaving it, when a casual glance at the actual facts will show that no, he was far more respectful about it than his interlocutor. That's, as you might call it, whitewashing that person's unjustified aggressivity and rudeness. Whether you like it or not "watch the show before you criticize it" is and will always be a very strong argument.

If Danny Rand had been turned Asian, people would have bitched about the Asian actor getting the shittiest Marvel show. Also that person was wrong.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:46:04 AM by GKG

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#80120: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:44:07 AM

Eh, Doom neglects his kingdom all the time. Don't no one complain about his grudge against RICHARDS!!!!!!! tongue

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#80121: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:44:14 AM

A lot of T'Challa's reputation for Suedom I've noticed tends from people getting secondhand info from stories they've never actually read. For instance, everyone cites the arm bar scene, but literally a page or two later the Surfer admits that he let Panther get him into a hold because he wanted to hear his side of the argument before jumping into another Let's You and Him Fight conflict.

There are quite literally entire pages of examples on Power Creep, Power Seep and Popularity Power showing weaker characters pulling off bullshit victories. They just are never brought up as much as Panther's.

edited 8th Feb '18 11:45:06 AM by comicwriter

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80122: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:45:00 AM

People complain about Doom constantly.

Because he's a supervillain.

They're always saying stuff like 'oh i wish doom would stop shooting buildings into space'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#80123: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:45:30 AM

[up]Not wanting buildings shot into space is some sort of stupid PC agenda.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#80124: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:46:01 AM

It also doesn't help that T'Challa gets called a Gary Stu for the same reasons Bruce Wayne receives endless praise

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#80125: Feb 8th 2018 at 11:47:04 AM

[up][up]Guys I think we should wait until the building is shot all the way into space before we criticize it.


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