TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#79401: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:21:26 AM

I freaking loved Hela. She might have been not super rounded out as a character, but she was so much fun! Like a classic Disney villain. (My sister kept calling her Maleficent. [lol] She liked her a lot too. As well as the movie as a whole.)

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#79402: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:26:20 AM

I feel like spending time as a gladiator and encouraging a slave uprising should thematically connect with Hela and Asgard's shameful past but I can't quite pull it together

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#79403: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:37:31 AM

Hela is a conqueror and warmonger who refuses to accept that her people don't want that any more. Perhaps not the deepest of characters, but I liked her. Definitely helped by her spending the entire movie annoyed that she has to kill everyone because they don't want her to lead them to glory.

If she does end up coming back as the Death that Thanos is obsessed with, though, she'd definitely need a real plotline.

I liked the idea of her. She had the makings of what could have been a fascinating character, but she never realizes her potential. She suffers from being more of a Final Boss Fight than an actual character. She briefly interacts with the plot for five minutes at the start, then spends the bulk of the film setting up a power base offscreen so that the heroes of the Planet Hulk story can show up and have a big blowout with her once they're finished with the real story.

There's no room for her character to breathe and it keeps her from ever becoming fully realized as the villain of the film.

The film tries to compensate by giving her a shallow and ridiculous familial connection to Thor and Loki, one that ultimately falls flat because it doesn't really mean anything for any of the characters. At no point is anyone's choices affected by the fact that she's their older sister. It's just there.

Hela could have been one of Marvel's greater villains. But the choices made with her keep her from ever achieving it, and the biggest problem with her is that she has nothing to do with most of the plot. She just does cool things every now and then so the audience can remember she exists while the heroes have fun and do awesome things on Sakaar against another villain that has nothing to do with her.

That's the problem with Thor: Ragnarok. It's two potentially amazing movies smashed together into one moderately good movie.

EDIT: She's like the Archdemon from Dragon Age. The plot is ostensibly about gathering allies to battle her, but it's really not. It's just an excuse to go to interesting places, meet interesting characters, and find out what they're about. One might be forgiven for actually forgetting that she's even a thing every now and then, given how little presence she has in the main story.

edited 29th Jan '18 9:41:29 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#79404: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:42:07 AM

I agree that Ragnarok was a bit too concerned with being the "fun, cool" Thor movie to the point where it's own story suffered, so while I like the movie a lot and think it's better than Thor 2, in general I'd put it behind GOTG 2 which, as people have said, hit it's emotional and character beats a whole lot better.

A lot of characters and plot points are wasted for the sake of funny or for action, and the whole thing feels much like the writers were against anything having any more weight than they absolutely had to. Hela suffers from it the most, being Marvel's flattest villain yet, but admittedly put into a movie where being flat doesn't hurt the movie as a whole much. It's a dedicated popcorn movie, essentitally.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#79405: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:49:32 AM

“Flattest villain yet” implies that she’s flatter than Malekith, which...yeah, I don’t buy that for a minute.

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#79406: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:52:18 AM

I mean, I would say she is comparable to him, in terms of depth. They've both got flimsy personality and few traits beyond "evil," and generally cause characterization to happen to other characters by way of being responsible for bad stuff rather than having any themselves.

It's just that Malekith is in an awful movie, so his lack of depth is that much more obvious. Hela's extremely two dimensional, but in a movie that better serves to take advantage of that (Ronan is the same way). Hela also has the thing Ronan had going for him where her backstory is relatively relateable, so people can at least empathize with where she's coming from even though she doesn't have much of a personality to latch onto - another thing that drew attention to how flat Malekith was his stupid saturday morning cartoon motivation.

edited 29th Jan '18 9:59:26 AM by KnownUnknown

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#79407: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:54:49 AM

" the whole thing feels much like the writers were against anything having any more weight than they absolutely had to. "

That is typical for marvel, if anything I feel strange about ninety saying about a marvel movie who dosent take itself seriously when it general marvel barely does, with the only exception of Winter soldier and Civil war, Marvel barely let a serious moment long too much for some reason, is annoying.

And is weird compared Ragnarok with GOTG 2 because the later have ego, one of the most chilling and motherfuckers villian so far, I dont know how but the movie really made me cheer for the manchild protagonist, THAT said a lot.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#79408: Jan 29th 2018 at 9:56:08 AM

Marvel doesn't usually eschew weight to that extent, no. Ragnarok literally bugs off the plot for a while so the characters can have cool actiony adventures outside their dimension, for one. The other big offenders in their lineup people point to as not having weight where its needed are Iron Man 3 and Ultron, both of which were also criticized for it.

In fact, I got the feeling Ragnarok's reasoning for it was the same as Iron Man 3's: overcompensation for the melodramatic, panned previous installment.

Actually, the big character Hela keeps reminding me of, though this is a weird comparison, is Kai from Kung Fu Panda 3. A character with a cool design and a noticeably Boring, but Practical fighting style that made them distinct from the more bombastic world around them, and with a backstory that has potential. But in the end the characters talk about them more than the plot actually uses that potential, and ultimately they're more Generic Doomsday Villains who are just there for the hero to buck up against and fight. Both thus are noticeably less interesting villains than others in their universe, but still stand out simply by being far more intimidating.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:05:31 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#79409: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:12:45 AM

I haven't written the article for Hela yet - nor do I intend to anytime soon - but ANY villain would have a hard time to score lower than Malekith. Even if I come to the decision that she sucks in all of the others category, she'll get full points for acting and costume for sure, which is easily enough raise past Malekith.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#79410: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:13:34 AM

Hela is a perfect example of a weakly written character being carried solely by her actress. Cate Blanchett just makes it work.

I confess that while most of the emotional beats were good in GotG 2, it was held back a little bit for me by the fact that it seemed like the father/son relationship between Yondu and Quill seemed to sort of materialize between movies. It was certainly shown that Yondu cared for him but it seemed just a tad overblown in places by comparison in the sequel.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:14:20 AM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#79411: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:15:50 AM

If Hela HAD been just a simple megalomaniacal baddie, then I probably could have enjoyed her on the level of say, General Zod in Superman II. Namely, simple villain but made more memorable by a great performance.

The issue for me is that they TEASED so much more with her, the makings of a deeper backstory/villain, and then didn't do much with it. And it felt like a bunch of wasted potential as a consequence.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#79412: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:17:41 AM

[up][up] I don't think it was...especially not considering the number of Fanfiction involving Papa Yondu. Most people I knew felt that Yondu basically let Peter get away with murder and didn't buy that he would have killed him. Honestly, if that had been his goal, he could have easily left him out in the cold instead of giving him the opportunity to talk himself out of the fix he was in. Not saying that it wasn't an abusive relationship, it certainly was, but it was also pretty clear that Yondu would protect Peter to his best of his abilities.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:17:54 AM by Swanpride

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#79413: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:19:52 AM

[up][up]I thought the tease was enough. I doubt Marvel would have allowed her being more blatantly/obviously a representation of imperialism and the legacy of racial supremacy (it is Asgard’s right to rule all others...)

And the theme is also somewhat developed with Grandmaster and his hatred of the s-word; the Sakaar plot isn’t as disconnected from the main story as it initially appears.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:20:12 AM by wisewillow

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#79414: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:22:53 AM

How about doing something with the family dynamic? That felt REALLY undercooked. And she and Thor/Loki never felt like siblings imo (and barely got to interact outside the climax). Don't bring it up if you're going to do anything interesting with it. Just make her an unrelated former general of Odin's in that case or something.

Also she gets not much to do while they're on Sakaar, which didn't help. If there's one think that I dislike most, it tends to be wasted potential.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#79415: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:23:41 AM

I can kinda see that

I've been seeing people caption the prisoners with jobs gifset as "America"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#79416: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:23:57 AM

I went from liking Hela to really not caring for her after about a week of seeing Thor 3.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#79417: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:28:05 AM

Honestly, it kind of feels like Marvel wanted Ragnarok (because that's what they announced) and Waititi really wanted to do Planet Hulk so he found a ways to intertwine them both but since he didn't really care for the Ragnarok part, he went really lazy with it. It's the same feeling the five minute solution for the last movies cliffhanger caused in me.

Which is too bad, because he could have had both while still respecting the ragnarok part of the story. It only needed a few tweaks...and less family relationship. Honestly, at the very least make her Odin's sister instead of his daughter, that would have at the very least served as a great mirror for the relationship between Thor and Loki. On the one hand Odin betraying his sister because she is too set on power and on the other hand Loki betraying Thor for a power he actually doesn't want.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#79418: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:30:17 AM

[up][up][up] [up]If she’s just a general, she’s not the legitimate legacy of Odin/Asgard. She’s an outlier, an extremist. As Odin’s first born? She is the true avatar of Asgard’s imperialism and the rightful heir to the throne. Much better symbolism, and I do agree that Hela v. Thor fighting for Asgard’s soul should have been more prominent. I saw a couple good fanfics that posited that part of the reason for the small group of refugees was that the upper/middle classes were fine with Hela and renewing conquest. Heimdall and his common folk were the outliers.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:30:48 AM by wisewillow

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#79419: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:30:53 AM

It doesn't help that it was the same year that we got Vulture and Ego as villains, and they were both more interesting and complex and got more to do.

Wisewillow, but the movie doesn't do anything with that, that's the problem. It's the most shallow surface-level idea possible. You probably put more thought into it with that one paragraph than the writers/director did with the actual film. It's just, thrown in there, but not explored at all.

For as much as some fans like to criticize say, Ant Man or Dr. Strange, for being very "basic and surface-level," Ragnarok is guilty of that as well. It's just that it distracts with pretty visuals and comedy. It's pure style over substance.

edited 29th Jan '18 10:33:27 AM by Punisher286

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#79420: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:32:54 AM

[up][up] Good point...I still feel that what is going on in Asgard is kind of lazy. It would have been better if there had been warriors and people voluntarily cheering and helping her instead of a very convenient zombie army waiting for her.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#79421: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:37:57 AM

Here's the thing, GOTG made the audience care about Yondu, gave him a tragic yet heroic and well-done death, and then spent like ten minutes on the mourning and funeral, and paid off stuff from earlier in the film at the same time. They did it so well that I heard multiple people weeping in the theatre with me, and even as cynical as I usually am, I got emotional at points as well.

And that's not even counting the stuff with Gamora, Nebula, Peter, Ego, Meredith Quill, Drax, Rocket, Mantis, etc.

By contrast, Ragnarok kills off Thor's oldest and dearest friends like punks, and then cannot be bothered to give Thor ANY time to mourn or even acknowledge their deaths, because we needed yet another joke at the end of the movie instead.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#79422: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:42:57 AM

Pretty much. At the very least there should be a moment of mourning after the explosion. Just leaving out the (predictable) punch line and instead showing people weeping and comforting each other and the Thor dropping his head and acknowledge the friends he lost in his finale speech would have gone a long way to push Ragnarok higher on my list.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#79423: Jan 29th 2018 at 10:47:40 AM

I agree about time to mourn.

I disagree with the person (not sure how many arrows above) who said I put more thought than Taika Waititi.

Those bloody covered up murals didn’t come from nowhere. “Where did you think all this gold came from?” and “We drowned entire civilizations in blood and tears” weren’t accidental lines.

The ship they steal from grandmaster is the colors of the aboriginal flag, for God’s sake.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#79424: Jan 29th 2018 at 11:28:59 AM

Doctor Strange is basic and surface level, it's the most outright boring and uninteresting film in the MCU, even excusing the blatant racism of it. I'd outright rate it below Thor: The Dark World, at least that one had Loki doing cool stuff.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#79425: Jan 29th 2018 at 11:37:40 AM

I've not seen Doctor Strange to comment on it,but the first Captain America film I've always felt is rather low down on the list of great marvel movies,to me that has a similar level of blandness

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

Total posts: 186,763
Top