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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78626: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:25:44 PM

Doctor Strange being a watered-down Tony Stark just isn't what I want from the character. I want to see him at the top of his game, as the slightly younger bug generally still pretty worldly-wise superhero Gandalf of the MCU.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#78627: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:27:34 PM

@Alley Oop Yeah, have to agree with you there. Especially with the portrayal of the Howling Commandos in the first film.

Overall they are pretty minor chaacters in the grand scheme of the film; but with the little dialogue they have they are actually very fleshed out. Examples include:

  • Dum Dum being the patriotic big guy who is looking to get into a good scrap with Hydra and willing to work alongside people he didn’t expect to be his bash brothers
  • Jim is the tough scrapper from New York who have to deal with xenophobia on a daily basis since the start of the war.
  • Gabe is the cultured badass who manage to hijack and pilot Hydra weapons due to his prior knowledge of the German language (to get laid, of course)

The films really do know how to write full fledged characters with the little dialogue given to them.

Now regarding Doctor Strange, in defence on his characterization in the film we have to remember that this is his origin movie and considering his characterization in said origin it is very similar to Stark. They are both highly well knowned man of science who experienced an accident that cause them to be physically handicapped in some way and through said handicapped they learn to self improve themselves in mind & personality in an Asian setting to become the hero we all know now. So I can excuse the film being an origin story since the comparisons are unavoidable, as long as he acts more Strange like in the later films.

Also, member when Liongate released an animated Iron Man and Doctor Strange movie?

edited 4th Jan '18 10:36:17 PM by BigK1337

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#78628: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:28:35 PM

"Watered down tony stark" has sort of been a problem with the MCU for a while, honestly. Not in a 1:1 sense, but mostly that a number of the stories have been about an immature, arrogant white guy learning humility and how to be a better person.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#78629: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:35:04 PM

I guess that's kind of why I feel Ant-Man works better than Doctor Strange. Scott isn't the Tony Stark analogue here, Hank Pym is. Scott Lang is just this dopey little nobody who wants to protect his daughter.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78630: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:37:50 PM

[up][up]I agree, but Doctor Strange just seems especially egregious because it seems so far removed from his comic book character. Comic book Peter Quill isn't quite as much of a Manchild, but Peter Quill's lack of maturity— because he's actually got a certain amount of humility— better fits to set him apart. And Scott Lang doesn't have to be a genius, and hopefully Hope coming into her own will work in his favour, since his movie already works as a bit more of an ensemble where he is distinctly not in charge of his own life.

[up]Exactly.

edited 4th Jan '18 10:38:24 PM by Unsung

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#78631: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:43:40 PM

I would argue that the T. Stark parrellels only work for characters like Thor and Doctor Strange since those characters are the only ones with an origin from the comics which was about a brash well known figure who are brought down from their hubris to learn humility for the sake of becoming a better person.

This is as much the fault of the source material as it is the screenwritters of the film. Though I do agree that Strange pre Sorcerror Supreme characterization is to Stark like. Personally, he should of have the cliche Doctor Jerk personality as House or his portrayal in those Lionsgate animated films.

edited 4th Jan '18 10:47:21 PM by BigK1337

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#78632: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:49:40 PM

Thor and Dr. Strange at least have godly shit/magic to make them different. Also, Thor's story is of a strong guy who is made weak because he doesn't deserve it and must earn his power back. Dr. Strange and Stark are the two closest parallels, but there are differences there too.

Tony Stark is the story of a rich jerk who does bad things getting hurt by those bad things and deciding to dedicate his life to making suits to fight those bad things. Stephen Strange is the story of a rich jerk who does good things getting hurt by random chance and dedicating his life to magic in order to be able to go back to doing good things and bigger, gooder things.

edited 4th Jan '18 10:50:23 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78633: Jan 4th 2018 at 10:55:16 PM

[up][up] I wouldn't have complained if Dr Steve was more House-like. That's a different kind of snark from the one they gave him in his movie. In the same sense, Thor being kind of a goofball Boisterous Bruiser is enough to give the comedy in Ragnarok its own identity that's different from both RDJ's improv and GOTG's crime caper antics.

But while Ant-Man isn't exactly Tony Stark, all the same ingredients are there even more prominently, even if they're split up between Scott, Hope, and Hank.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#78634: Jan 4th 2018 at 11:02:02 PM

[up]x2 When you put it like that, Doctor Strange is truly the most selfless Marvel hero right next to Captain America.

Speaking of themes, I think another thing that sets Doctor Strange apart is its message of being more open to all fields of study and the promotion of obtaining additional knowledge. Stephen in this movie have to learn that magic exist and can be maintain just like any field of science, accept that while dark magic is dangerous it can be used for good and further his own training as Sorcerror Supreme so that he can be able to protect his dimension from dangerous beings that seek to destroy.

In short, without the movie and its theme we wouldn’t get the more comic accurate Strange as seen in Ragnarok (and hopefully Infinity War).

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#78635: Jan 4th 2018 at 11:03:28 PM

Thing is Ant-Man also did the "Tony Stark-lite" schtick far, far better, as well as just about everything else for that matter. So Dr. Strange doesn't really have an excuse, despite coming afterwards. Even the visuals didn't appeal to me, since maybe they're offbeat for a blockbuster movie, but aside from the hands-to-eye scene, I've seen more creative "trippiness" in plenty of other works.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78636: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:40:45 AM

I like Natasha pretty much in every movie except the stupid romance they stuck her in in Age of Ultron. But then, I most likely experienced her character differently than most people here, because when I saw her in Iron man 2 I genuinely had no idea who her character is, so I spend a whole movie trying to figure out if she is one of the bad guys or not.

Doctor Strange could have used better writers...the odd thing is that the script is full of great ideas, but there was a desperate need to rearrange some of the scenes and smooth out some of the dialogue. The movie is lucky that the actors do most with the material they are given, making the great moments in it truly epic, but said epic moments are still very clumsily connected. At least in the first act....the second act gets better and the third act is actually pretty good.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#78637: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:02:24 AM

I feel bad for having this opinion, but I always feel like Black Widow isn't really adding anything to any of the movies she's in. Scarlett Johansson is the second most expensive actor after Robert Downey Jr. in the MCU movies, and all I can see when I look at Black Widow is a waste of money. Black Widow's not detrimental to any of the films, she just doesn't add much and just feels... there.

It feels like you could easily cut her out of all the MCU movies, lose nothing except one more female actor in the cast, and the movies would do just fine without her and save a bunch of money by not hiring Scarjo. Black Widow never feels like an irreplaceable member of the team, she's not the lynchpin to any of the movies' plots, she's just there. Like, I would actually be incredibly excited for a Black Widow movie, just to get a film that justifies the character's existence.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#78638: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:21:08 AM

I'd consider Hawkeye a lot more expendable.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78639: Jan 5th 2018 at 5:18:34 AM

[up][up] I disagree...especially regarding The Winter Soldier. Juxtaposing her spy mentality with Steve's hero-soldier mentality is what makes the movie work so well in the first place. And her own little arc making the releasing of the secrets of SHIELD (including her own) so much more poignant than it would have been if anyone else had done it.

Likewise he role in Civil War is important, because she is the only one involved who puts holding the team together above everything else.

edited 5th Jan '18 5:19:43 AM by Swanpride

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#78640: Jan 5th 2018 at 6:32:37 AM

I agree, she's pretty central to Winter Soldier. The main problem is that her skill set lends itself the least to traditional superheroics than any of the other avengers so they have to find stuff for her to do and set the plot up more intricately. Winter Soldier succeeded in this, Age of Ultron... did not.

Hawkeye doesn't have that problem and Age of Ultron actually used him really well. But he also doesn't add a lot; it's just easier to fit him in.

edited 5th Jan '18 6:34:14 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78641: Jan 5th 2018 at 6:37:23 AM

[up] Sure, but seeing her fight also tends to be more interesting in the long run than seeing Hulk punching something or Ironman firing a missile. Dito for Hawkeye. Unpopular opinion, I know, but I do think that what you can do with certain heroes fighting moves is somewhat limited, and throwing in some good old hand-to-hand combat or arrows whose purpose you can't predict really makes for a better action set-piece overall.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#78642: Jan 5th 2018 at 7:50:14 AM

I think even the first Avengers film did a better job acknowledging Widow’s limitations, which is why having her break away from the fight to shut down the portal was a clever solution.

It’s a shame we didn’t get to see much of the New Avengers, because the more tactical approach seen at the beginning of Civil War was also interesting.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78643: Jan 5th 2018 at 7:55:50 AM

Eh. If some heroes are limited in what they do in battle that's more down to a failure of imagination than it is a limit of the characters themselves. A character's limitations can be a source of action sequences unique to them, as much as any special powers they have.

That being said, never having actually made a Black Widow movie is a complete waste of Scarlett Johansson. Winter Soldier was a good start, and showed she had a personality of her own (subdued though it might be), but the character really needs a moment in the sun. It's been too long since the chair scene in Avengers, and the fall of Hydra has really limited her options in a way.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#78644: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:00:38 AM

Maybe it's my outright loathing of Scarlett Johanson due to her being the face of white feminism, but I really don't give a shit about a Black Widow movie anymore. Gimme a Valkyrie movie.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#78645: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:06:22 AM

I’m at the same place. A Black Widow movie 3 years ago would have been nice, but now? I’m tired of Scar Jo.

Gimme Valkyrie. Apparently Tessa Thompson pitched a female superhero movie and I WANT IT.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78646: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:15:29 AM

That's fair. I do kind of miss the more overt intersect between superheroes and big-screen spy antics, though, and I did like that character.

Ugh. Shame about Ghost in the Shell for a lot of reasons.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#78647: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:18:31 AM

[up][up][up][up] there's only so much "imagination" can get away with in a story. Black Widow and Hawkeye have the same issue as Batman and Green Arrow in that for them to be effective in an all out battle the enemy had to be needed or suffer PIS.

edited 5th Jan '18 8:19:38 AM by windleopard

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#78648: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:28:38 AM

[up] At least Batman and Green Arrow have access to a lot of technology. Black Widow and Hawkeye really do not.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78649: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:29:08 AM

So, uh...why exactly did you put imagination in quotation marks? Anyway, my point was about fight choreography, not whether or not Black Widow and Hawkeye should be going hand to hand with the various Physical Gods of the setting. James Bond doesn't plink away at tanks with his PPK. If they have to go for a more roundabout method, use some baseline human ingenuity, I'm fine with that.

edited 5th Jan '18 8:52:58 AM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78650: Jan 5th 2018 at 8:31:28 AM

Black Widow and Hawkeye only being able to take on certain kind of villains doesn't make them useless. You wouldn't pit Ironman alone against Thanos either, he would have no chance whatsoever, nor would Captain America. Black Widow and Hawkeye have their place in the Avengers, because they provide a different point of views due to being spies and in Hawkeye's case, due to having a more grounded point of view on the world. Hell, we had a whole movie in which NONE of the heroes could actually do anything about the villains so that they were forced to create a new hero to do the job for them.

Regarding a Black Widow movie: I still would like to see one, provided that they turn it into a James Bond style movie, in which Black Widow does pretty much everything James Bond does, including flirting herself through her enemies. I would turn it into an outright Shield operation, though, with Maria Hill and Sharon Carter as back-up for Natasha...and the cherry on top would be if it also contains a scene in which Black Widow picks up her new equipment and Fitzsimmons demonstrate all kind of gadgets for her. And yes, I know that I am now in dreaming territory.

You know, if Nick Fury STILL hasn't turned up by the time Avengers 4 is finished, I would make the whole movie about the search for Nick Fury.


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