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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Yeah, I have to agree that Ronan seems pretty well-received. I see him brought up a lot as an example of how to do a flat, one-dimensional villain right in an MCU film. He benefit from the fact that there was never any pretense that he was anything but an evil asshole. No attempt at making him sympathetic, no complex lore surrounding him. He was a bad dude who wanted to do bad things, and did them with charisma and awesomeness.
Malekith and Hela suffer from the fact that it feels like they should be more interesting than they are, but Ronan is exactly as interesting as it feels like he should be. He is 100% a purely physical threat that came out of nowhere to butcher the innocent, and the film never pretends that he's meant to be anything else.
Ronan isn't a character so much as he is an excuse for the plot to happen, with all of the film's narrative focus spent on far more interesting characters reacting to the plot he put in motion. He just does things, with various awesome and hilarious consequences resulting from the ripples he makes intersecting with the more-developed cast.
edited 26th Dec '17 12:24:14 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I think Hela probably would have worked better if they cut out the part about her being Loki and Thor's sister. That made it seem like she should be a more interesting and developed character; even if she couldn't be as interesting as Loki, she should at least be as interesting as Thor. But that's not what the movie wanted from her. It just wanted a character like Ronan; a purely physical threat to put the plot in motion.
She's a murder-god who murders folk in awesome murder-battles. She has one emotion and it's murder. She's a destroyer who single-handedly kills all of Asgard with her awesome killing abilities while growling about how she hates everything. That is the entire extent of her character, and that would work just fine if she was just some predestined destroyer.
Instead of the plot being, "Your sister who must surely be a fascinating and mysterious character is coming back with a grudge," it could instead have just been, "The goddess of death will be released from her imprisonment soon, as goes Ragnarok. Asgard will fall as it is meant to. This cannot be avoided."
And then her bland, one-dimensional "Murder-God Who Murders Real Good" shtick would be fine, because there'd be no expectation of her being anything else. Instead, they tried to make her tragic and flawed and compelling, and that just doesn't work because all she does is hit stuff real good while snarling about how evil she is.
edited 26th Dec '17 12:41:28 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I've thought a bit about how Ronan is very similar to Malekith in terms of amount of depth and the way his role in the plot comes across in general, but that a big reason he comes off as the better of the two is that his motivation is something relateable and understandable to the audience. The inability to let go of old conflicts, people refusing to quit fighting - sometimes doing horrible things - after tenuous peace is achieved, that's something most people know about even if they haven't experienced it themselves. So the audience could assume a grounding for where Ronan was coming from and relate to what the stakes might be if he won without them having to spent a lot of time actually establishing those things.
The result is a 2D bad guy who is relateable enough that to a lot of viewers he gets a pass, whereas Malekith's Saturday Morning Cartoon-esque "you dare bring light into my universe? You must die!" motivation didn't.
I don't think Hela was ever meant to be considered tragic
I do like her for what she adds to the context for how Odin handled Thor and Loki
Even if she's kind of flat, the shadow she casts is long
Forever liveblogging the AvengersNot really, they don't do nearly enough with it for it to be compelling imo. Also Odin's inconsistent characterization across these films doesn't help matters.
Also I agree that Hela not being related would have probably helped things. Then it's just a case of "well she's a two-dimensional psychopath, but Cate Blanchett's performance is just so freaking entertaining that I can appreciate her in a similar way that I appreciate say, Terrence Stamp's take on General Zod in Superman II).
But once you throw the "oh she's their long-lost sister," then I want her to be more interesting (especially given how important the brother dynamic has been between Thor and Loki across these films). Expectations change. But as it stands, they barely acknowledge that connection, they don't even really feel like siblings, it doesn't change the conflict in any real way, they don't get many scenes with her, etc. It feels like, a waste of potential really.
Shit, you could even keep the part about her being Asgard's greatest warrior dismayed at what it's become while taking out the sibling connection. There is no reason at all why Odin's greatest enforcer from an age long-past absolutely must be his crotch-spawn.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Which just makes it entirely her cruelty because Thor has never had any sort of influence over Asgard. The previous films did not lay adequate groundwork for this one to be a battle for the soul of Asgard. At this point, Loki has shaped the direction of Asgard more than Thor has.
Odin apparently had a chance of heart at some point and Thor just got saddled with the burden of picking up the torch he dropped and going, "Uh, yeah. Whatever he said. Does anyone know what he said? 'Cause I've kinda been hanging out in Midgard for a while, but I'm sure that whatever he said, it was probably worth fighting for."
Thor all but gave up his claim to the throne of Asgard at the end of the previous film, which puts him in an awkward place to suddenly be dueling his sister over who shall be the rightful heir.
Not to mention, we've already seen that movie. It was called "Thor".
edited 26th Dec '17 3:26:28 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'll be honest, from what I've seen of Ragnarok, I don't think I'll see it. It just doesn't feel like it's for me, and the interview snippets I've seen of the director don't help. The phrase "dumb pandering" comes to mind, and all of the characters look like the stupidest versions of themselves. The only thing of value that came from this movie is Thor cutting his hair (because why have him look anything at all like he does in the comics, right??) and losing his eye.
My various fanfics.All this complaints about Hela being Thor’s sister reminds me of another movie sequel where they retcon a god of thunder to being siblings with another all powerful kill happy conqueror. Only difference is I like Thor Ragnarok (who even the title have similarities to that movie) and it doesn’t try to cram waaaaay too many characters for an overglorified cameo . . . sans Doctor Strange in said film.
Anyway, I do think Hela was better off just being either Odin’s key general or former lover who helped build Asgard to what it is as at least that would be enough backstory for her motivation in said film without building up an artificial Cain and Abel story that is hardly even explored upon. I like Thor’s ascension into becoming king of Asgard (even though it would most likely be taken away once Infinity War comes out), I like that the film takes place in more fantastical locations, hell, I even like the more comedic tone of the film (even when it comes off as mood whiplash to the more serious moments). Hela’s change in origins is one thing I don’t like.
Why would she come back for Infinity War? Ragnarok made it pretty clear that Surtur smashing Asgard would destroy her.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I feel like that'd be hard to reconcile with her being in Hel for millennia.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Imho none of the MCU villains is as bad as Malekith. None. Especially not Ronan. Ronan ended up a four star villain on my rating, due to being a believable threat with understandable motivations and a simple plan. The only reason Malekith didn't end up with a one star rating (which is the lowest I am able to give) is because I gave him some points for his costume. His costume.
I am not sure where Hela will end up, because I haven't even started to think about her article yet. Even if I had already reached her, I would most likely skip her for now and address her to a later date because I would prefer to watch the movie a few times and let it sink in a little bit more before judging her. But I don't think that I will ding her for being Thor's sister. It's not really that strong of an idea on a narrative level, but has some merit on a symbolical leve.
I will ding the writers for making it too easy for Hela, though. I think the movie would be strong if Hela actually had at least initially support from more than one Asgardian. You know, the ones who want to make Asgard great again.....
How about we take a look at all the MCU villains:
- Obidiah Stane: Good starter villain for being a Starscream to Tony by selling weapons via the black market to a bunch of terrorist cells and creating the Iron Monger suit for the that same purpose.
- General Thunderbolt Ross: Also good for wanting to capture Hulk/Banner for not only being a threat to national secruity but also to keep him away from his daughter Betty . . . even though he is at fault for using an untested super soldier serum on Blonsky that ended up creating a worse threat than Hulk. So yeah he is a great villain.
- Emil Blonsky/Abomination: He is good in the evil counterpart sense due to his blood knight tendency clouding his reasons.
- Whiplash: . . . Meh. Maybe its because of all the cut scenes to the film that make him so bland as clearly from glimpse of Mickey Rourke's performance in some scenes. Though the only things that work IMO is his awesome first fight with Iron Man on the race track and his obsession with his bird.
- Loki: Do I need to say that he was great in that film? So much so that he is used as the main antagonist for the Avengers crossover movie (which, again, true to the source material in terms of first villain).
- Laufey: Not really memorable at all. Than again when you appear in a movie with Loki as a villain, chances are you won't be getting much spotlight.
- Destroyer: Awesome in his initial introduction as a powerful force Thor will have to face in the film . . . relagated as Hogan Job Fodder the moment Thor regain his powers. It was fucking disappointing, I mean weren't the Wrecking Crew supposed to be the J.O.B. Squad of the Marvel Universe (but mostly Thor since they are his villains).
- Red Skull: Pretty generic, but lets face it its Red Skull. Outside of being a Nazi who wants to take over the world and have a red skull like face, what other personality traits and characteristics does he have?
- Arnim Zola: In the first movie he was pretty much just Red Skull's lackey, but by Winter Soldier he actually become a more interesting villain by founding the Hydra spinter cell when he "defected" to SHIELD AAAAAND they actually pull the whole characteristic of him placing his mind into a computer body that was a key characteristic to the guy. Seriously, I am plesantly surprised at how well they adapted Zola in these films. All that is missing are his genetic experiments.
- Chitari: Generic mook villains since, again, Loki is the star. But they are integral part in the memorable final battle of the movie the Avengers so I give them a pass.
- Mandarin: . . . The fuck. I know he is difficult to adapt and all, but c'mon that twist sucks; especially considering all the build up since the first Iron Man movie with the Ten Rings organization. However . . .
- Adrian Killian a.k.a. REAL (kind of) Mandarin: I actually like this guy, and he does capture the whole concept of the character being a shadow archtype to Tony Stark. Though I do wish he is Chinese in this movie as this character does not showcase any of the Yellow Peril stereotype that plagues the character and the race for this character can be interchangable.
- Malekith: He sucks. Nuff said.
- Kurse: He's okay. Though his death was anticlimatic.
- Alexander Pierce: Definitely a good big bad for the film's overall conflict.
- Winter Soldier: Awesome dragon and great personal villain for Steve Rogers to deal with considering who he is.
- Crossbone: Good brute villain who continuously antagonizes the main character, even when HYDRA is destroyed. I really like how they translate his comic costume in Civil War, and in spite being a minor threat in the film's cold opening he made a great impact on the plot.
- Batroc the Leaper: Great translation to a recurring villain often considered silly by many. He even retains the purple and yellow color scheme. Can I just say that Winter Soldier has the BEST portrayal of Marvel villains out of all the films.
- Ronan The Accuser: Generic compare to his (post Annihilation) comic book counter part but works alright for a starting big bad for a movie with many characters to introduce.
- Korrath the Pursuerer: Even more bland than Ronan when you really think about it.
- Nebula: She's a pretty good villainous with legitimate reasons for her villainy tying into her hatred towards her sister and being forced to serve Thanos.
- Baron Strucker: Disappointing. And the whole him being a Nazi excuse won't fly like it did with Red Skull, as he didn't really do much aside from giving Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch their powers. Hell he gave up easily at the opening of the film making his post credit scene not having much impact
- Klaw: Also don't have much impact to the plot aside from giving Ultron vibranium. But unlike Strucker, he is actually pretty memorable for the short time he is in AND he gets to shine as a character in the upcoming Black Panther movie. He may not be the film's main antagonist, but he will sure as hell steal the show.
- Ultron: Mixed feelings. On one hand he is given a more entertaining personality that extends from his usual homicidal machine characteristic and have a motive that isn't just destroy all humans for the sake of it. However, in terms of effectiveness as a villain, he is nothing compare to his comic counterpart and his plans aren't really planned out well for a hyper intelligent computer AI. Everybody complained why he didn't just pull a Wargames and nuke the world . . . that's because he did that in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Seriousy, that show is the best adaption to Avengers.
- Darren Cross: Yeah, I like him mostly for being a cross (get it) between three Ant Man villain: the guy of the same name, Egghead and even Ultron. So I can't really complain about him being bland or generic.
- Zemo: I also like him. I wouldn't call him the most interesting Marvel villain, but he is definitely the most effective in terms of how much he achieved his goals. I also like the idea of him being a true shadow archtype of Steve Roger in the sense of being the underdog fighting to overthrow a corrupt superpower that endanger the lives of people. So while completely different from the original Zemo, he is still a good take on the guy.
- Kalledicious: A pretty generic villain. Next.
- Dormammeu: Generic Doomsday Villain, but this is where said trope can be a good thing. The character has always been a GDV since his creation, so the writers decided to work with that as making him a foe that Strange can not defeat (since he is still training). Which gave us what may be the smartest way a Marvel hero in these films can defeat the bad guy instead of punching him: they instead have Strange outsmart Dormammeu by using a time repeat scale to force the Dark Lord into a time loop that will continue until the villain makes a deal with Strange. That was actually the best part in Doctor Strange for me!
- The Sovereign: They are there to be minor recurring antagonist for the GOTG, but they are pretty entertaining for their appearance in the movie.
- Taserface: Definitely a pretty good antagonist from the Ravengers side . . . too bad his threat level was quickly diminished by Rocket the moment he yelled out his name.
- Ego: Definitely a great villain for this film and without a doubt my favorite (mostly because he is played by my Man Crush Kurt Russel).
- Vulture: Also a great villain who I enjoyed a lot in the movie (mostly because he is payed by my Boy Crush Michael Keaton).
- Tinkerer: Good take on the character being a tech guy in the Vulture's gang.
- Shocker: Also like this guy as he served as minor villain Spider Man fight in the film. Can I just say that Spider Man Homecoming did an amazing job at utiizing multiple villains that both Spiderman 3 and Amazing Spiderman 2 failed at.
- Hela: Badass villainess ruined by unnecessary backstory. All she need was that she is the goddess of death who once served Odin.
- Grandmaster: Not a completely faithful take on the cosimic being, but still a fun character for the number of scenes he is in. . . mostly because he is played by my Nerd Crush Jeff Goldblum. Seriously, is this year of Marvel for utilizing some of my favorite 80s actors in villianous roles? Well considering over at Netflix they have Signourney Weaver and C. Thomas Hall as antagonists in their respective Netflix series (Defenders and Punisher), so yeah 2017 is the year of 80s stars starring as Marvel villains.

But honestly, I also just get a kick out of Disney getting away with the "blood as make-up" thing in a PG-13 movie.
edited 26th Dec '17 11:30:25 AM by Swanpride