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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78176: Dec 20th 2017 at 11:19:11 AM

You know, while I still would prefer the X-men in their own universe, what could be an interesting story is if they go full circle, going from the population turning against powered people until the whole thing escalates in a way that it hits their heroes too, at which point they start to circle back from the madness. This would mean, though, that the X-men movies allow society to develop.

Thing is, the more mutants get born, the more accepting the population will become, because if the mutant is your own child, you will be confronted with a situation you were previously able to overlook. And yes, I know that there are a lot of parents who start to hate their children if they turn out to be gay or whatever, but most at least try to deal with it. It is always harder to hate when it hits people you know and love.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78177: Dec 20th 2017 at 11:24:56 AM

Yeah, I don't know about "most", and even then, the degree of acceptance we've got is a very recent thing.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#78178: Dec 20th 2017 at 11:41:48 AM

Or, and this is a crazy idea, we could save the discrimination stories for real disenfranchised groups as opposed to relying on the tired ass trope of fantastic racism which is mostly done when writers have neither the courage nor the freedom to tell actual stories about oppressed groups facing adversity.

Adittionallly, I agree that the X-Men belong in their own separate universe. Can't do anything about Disney having them now, but they shouldn't be on the same world as the Avengers.

edited 20th Dec '17 11:42:02 AM by windleopard

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78179: Dec 20th 2017 at 11:50:46 AM

[up] You could, but sometimes an allegory is the better way to get a point across. See Zootopia.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78180: Dec 20th 2017 at 11:52:10 AM

[up][up]Do you think people have that freedom now? Do you really?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#78181: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:00:08 PM

[up][up] Let’s not hold up Zootopia as a great racial allegory. There were some big problems with the predator/prey analogy.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#78182: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:05:15 PM

Only if you believe that it was meant to be a direct analogy to two specific groups in the real world, and there was no indication that it was intended to read that way. Being set in a fictional society allowed it to address ideas that are relevant to real-world bigotry (namely, that discrimination takes a lot of different forms, and that a person may be subjected to certain types of bigotry while not being conscious of or personally affected by other types; and that suffering from some types of bigotry doesn't mean that you can't be guilty of other types), without having each group in the movie represent a specific real-life group.

I thought it was fantasic.

edited 20th Dec '17 12:06:24 PM by Galadriel

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#78183: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:07:10 PM

This article addresses some of the problems.

In Zootopia, no one really benefits from racism, and everyone is thus harmed by it equally — which is actually a pretty dangerous idea. But Zootopia’s racial parable is so opaque that you can almost read into it anything you like. As film critic Matt Zoller Seitz noted, “I can imagine an anti-racist and a racist coming out of this film, each thinking it validated their sense of how the world works.”

Basically, the film never really commits to a clear power structure or racial dynamic, which confuses the overall message.

If you prefer a quicker explanation, Cracked had a good article on it too.

edited 20th Dec '17 12:12:08 PM by wisewillow

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#78184: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:13:37 PM

I think that viewing it as a parable or a direct analogy is a misunderstanding of how it's supposed to work.

There are abundant stories that show one powerful group oppressing another powerless group and say "racism is bad". Zootopia was geared to getting at some of the more subtle and intersectional dimensions, where people can be simultaneously discriminated against in some respects and privileged in other respects. And it did that very well. It's not intended to mirror real-life society (i.e., in Zootopia there isn't a "rich straight white male" group that's privileged on all dimensions, which is what it sounds like you're objecting to).

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#78185: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:18:40 PM

I mean, that does distort the message.

But with Zootopia, they started from the place of telling a fun, charming story about animals. They researched the ways animals lived and their behavior. One character says that the population of Zootopia is 10 percent predator, which reflects a healthy biome. It was relatively late in the process (according to the filmmaker's own documentary) that they decided to make it about racism.

And I think that's why it's so unfocused, and every possible interpretation of the movie's metaphor comes out weird. Are predators supposed to be oppressed minorities? If so, what is with this "they used to be savage and now aren't" backstory? So maybe small animals are minorities — if that's the case, then the villain of the story is a member of an oppressed minority who got sick of being pushed around and fought back. Hey, what? Finally, if the movie is just about the concept of bias in general, why bring so much of the real world into it — "Don't touch a sheep's hair" and "Only bunnies can call each other 'cute'" and "HEY LOOK THIS PLOTLINE IS JUST LIKE THE CRACK EPIDEMIC." It ends up sending the "Everyone is a little bit racist, and bias affects everyone equally!" message that I'm just fundamentally disgusted by, I guess.

Does that make sense?

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#78186: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:33:07 PM

Because the message is not supposed to be "[insert group] in Zootopia is comparable to [insert real-world minority group]". It's supposed to be "facing one type of discrimination doesn't mean that you don't have other types of unexamined privilege, or that you aren't discriminating against other people/groups".

In short, it's not an allegory, but it does have deliberate applicability to the real world. And unlike most stories that reference bigotry, that applicability is not the the relationship between rich white men in power and the less-powerful groups they discriminate against. The movie's applicability is to relationships between black people and Hispanic people, or black people and Asians, or white women and black men, or straight women and gay men, or wealthy minorities and poor non-minorities, or any number of other dimensions.

It's about all the people for whom being a victim of bigotry and being a perpetrator of bigotry are not mutually exclusive. And that's a lot of people.

edited 20th Dec '17 12:43:11 PM by Galadriel

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78187: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:39:48 PM

Basically the message of Zootopia is "Check your privileges and rethink your own prejudices". Also that the world isn't perfect and most likely never will be, but you can do your part to make it a better place by giving other people the benefit of the doubt.

And it is so great because it is so universal, while also not going for the simplistic "good hero vs bad racist" angle.

Anyway, while moviebob is right about the whole X-men story basically being wish fulfilment for the bullied, I do think that it can be more than that if handled correctly.

edited 20th Dec '17 12:42:23 PM by Swanpride

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78188: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:47:06 PM

[up]Yeah, that kind of shrugging, status quo response isn't really cutting it for me. In trying to say a little something about everything, it comes off as not having actually said much in particular. Racism is bad, sure. It's complex and takes many different forms, okay. And? What next?

I like the movie, it's well-animated, very well designed, and it's got a ton of great gags, but up until about two-thirds of the way through the comments on our society are fairly sly— which is fine, it might've worked better if it continued being sly and subversive in some ways— but in suddenly veering into 'message' territory at the point it does, they haven't really built up the necessary sense of outrage beforehand, so the impact is thrown off. It's still there, it just...doesn't quite land right.

edited 20th Dec '17 12:49:47 PM by Unsung

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#78189: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:51:10 PM

That’s because the movie isn’t about combating racism as a system, and combating prejudice and privilege in oneself.

The “and then what” is “and then you become a better, more well-adjusted person, and if more people did that he world would be a better place.”

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#78190: Dec 20th 2017 at 12:52:18 PM

I think that Zootopia's message was handled very well and was very multifaceted and this is completely off-topic for the MCU thread.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78191: Dec 20th 2017 at 1:04:26 PM

And that's a fine message, but still muddily delivered, because all the main characters are a part of the system, and the system itself is shown to be flawed. Being a better person individually is all well and good, but that's not really the payoff to the setup here. Not that I expect life to wrap itself up with a bow or anything in a police procedural of all things, but I do think the movie veers pretty abruptly into full-on social commentary after being more subtle about it up to that point, then ends without really having decided what it wants to say other than it's unfortunate and we'd be better off it it were not the case.

[up]It sort of is, but I think it goes toward the larger point of how the X-Men address the subject.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78192: Dec 20th 2017 at 1:29:34 PM

[up] It really doesn't. I only brought up Zootopia as an example of how allegory can send a strong message. You might not feel that allegory was handled well in Zootopia especially, but a lot of people feel touched by it. And you might feel that making about real live issues is even better than an allegory, but we are discussing the MCU here, which is beholden to a certain degree to its source material.

We also shouldn't forget that the MCU has already shown that it can address socio-political themes in the Superhero context. See Jessica Jones. It is not like we needed a realistic version of rape instead of one committed with superpowers to understand what the show was trying to tell the audience about power dynamics. See Agents of Shield, which tackled the Trump administration more forceful than most news shows do. See Luke Cage tackling police shootings. See Got G Vol. 2 delving deep into the issue of abusive father figures.

It doesn't always work out (I'll spare you another rant about this Punisher episode which really botched the gun control issue), but that doesn't mean that they can't do the X-men as exactly what they are meant to be, a representation of systemic racism and something minorities can latch onto. (Btw, just because the X-men is usually addressing racism against mutants it doesn't mean that they can't address other forms of inequality, too).

Which is, btw, the reason that no matter how Marvel plans to use them, I hope they focus this time around on characters like Rogue and Storm, Northstar and Iceman.

edited 20th Dec '17 1:31:06 PM by Swanpride

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#78193: Dec 20th 2017 at 1:29:46 PM

No one is saying we can't have mutants get some kind of racial treatment, but we don't have to do it like it was in the 90's cartoon. Have one mutant live a happy life while another gets beaten up, a nice parallel of showing that racism exists, but it doesn't mean all mutants have it bad.

Just Makima.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#78194: Dec 20th 2017 at 2:03:46 PM

Allegories are useful tools because more people are willing to listen to them. Some folks tune out when you're trying to tell the story of a real group of people. They're like, "Oh, this is about The Gays. Meh."

But you give them an allegory and they're like, "Oh, wow, this is a really interesting story about a group of people struggling to get by that's super relevant to my life." And then later they're like, "Wait a minute, this story I'm super-invested in is about being gay. Whoa. Mind blown."

Allegory is the ambush predator of social enlightenment, teaching people to empathize with the struggles of others through Fridge Brilliance.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78195: Dec 20th 2017 at 2:51:21 PM

[up] Pretty much, yeah. As a general rule, people tend to get defensive when they feel that someone criticizes them. They are easier to reach when you make them feel for people in a specific situation and then pushing them to make the leap to apply what they have learned in their own life.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#78196: Dec 20th 2017 at 3:19:04 PM

And nothing against allegory in general, but allegories need to be written with care and nuance.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#78197: Dec 20th 2017 at 3:35:28 PM

I will point out that there are reviews for Zootopia on this very site that insist that the movie’s message is that Black Lives Matter is just as bad as Nazis and the Klan.

Allegory can be useful (one of my new favorite books this year is The Witch Boy, which is an allegory for gender roles and identity), but not handling it carefully can lead to no side being challenged.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#78198: Dec 20th 2017 at 4:43:31 PM

Allegory is the ambush predator of social enlightenment

How quotable

edited 20th Dec '17 4:44:01 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78199: Dec 20th 2017 at 5:14:11 PM

[up][up] People have sometimes different interpretations of a movie. Just like I seem to be the only one truly bothered by the one Punisher episode, some people might be bothered by something else. But that doesn't make the huge number of people who felt that Zootopia addressed something important automatically invalid. Sometimes an allegory is misunderstood by some, but that doesn't mean that it is useless as long as there are enough people who do understand it.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#78200: Dec 20th 2017 at 5:57:31 PM

Zoología is more "just because X did Y dosent mean that all X are Y" the fact predator just didnt do anything else can come as group of people who stop engaging in awfull behivor and move on(a good example is the bully who move away from Being that while the sheep swallow in is bitterness and become a villian) you can said this about every minorities: Black have move on from Being scary angry people paint them to be, so muslism and even white people are moving out from Being racist and so own.

And I Sorry the idea that allegory is bad because others can use it is silly and quite insulting, people pick thing from movie all the time, even things the authors dosent see it, is bound too happen.

Now about X men...,I feel conflicted, as rule they work as group but the better chararterization come from using them as individual, I feel any movie will focus on one mutant and léave out the others.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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