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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#78001: Dec 17th 2017 at 2:21:46 PM

And in the comics I think the reason initially was that Claremont was notoriously possessive of the X-Men

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#78002: Dec 17th 2017 at 2:37:03 PM

[up][up] But the universe already did that once with the Inhumans.

And that would mean that the entire history of mutant struggle - whether against the likes or Trask, or between the X-Men and Magneto - has to disappear altogether, because it can not have remained unnoticed. I mean, it might in the early 20th century where the communication systems were still poor, but for mutants to somehow remain hidden until 2017? That does not work.

Magneto as a X-Men antagonist and a "starting point" of the X-Verse works because WWII kinda marked the start of the information era, an era where it is harder and harder to ignore what is going on in the world. It would be ludicrous that mutants could have remained hidden for ten years since Tony Stark revealed to the world that he was Iron Man.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78003: Dec 17th 2017 at 2:48:36 PM

I still think that they should go the alternate reality route for the X-men. I mean, aside from it allowing more creative freedom with the X-men (honestly, I am not quite sure why fans so insistent that the HAVE to be in the same reality as everyone else, the best known team ups are dimension hopping events anyway, aren't they?) and making the message of the X-men even more poignant by having their earth in relative danger and quite a grim place, while the world in which Cap and co are accepted is overall a happier place in which people can be sure that someone will protect them from outside attacks und it simply being easier, it also makes sense from a business point of view.

1. It would allow new groups of audience their own entry point. Let's assume that there is a fraction which can't really get into the MCU but would be interested in a more heady version of a comic book movie, they would be able to just delve into it without the feeling of having to watch 20 to 25 other movies first.

2. It gives Marvel Studios a second pillar. The MCU is currently going strong, but what if the audience starts to loose interest in that reality after all...perhaps because there was a string of mediocre movies or it turns out that the second or the third generation of heroes doesn't hold their interest anymore? Well, no problem if there is another, more experimental universe around. To let's focus on that (or something at the other side of the galaxy) for a while, and then do some sort of reboot out of the X-men verse.

3. Even a reboot would be easier this way. If they want to introduce a new Cap/Ironman/Hulk aso Avengers team down the line they could do so and just saying "yeah, another universe, we don't replace the characters you love so much, but here is a different take on them". (not that I think that this will happen anytime soon).

Nyte Since: Oct, 2017
#78004: Dec 17th 2017 at 2:58:49 PM

I'm just going to say this:

Making an X-23 movie about Dafne Keen's Laura wouldn't work because it would ruin the magic Logan had. The ending is one of the most powerful in recent memory and to continue from there would ruin it. That's why I suggested an X-23 movie that's separate entirely from the Foxverse.

Also, X-Men in the MCU is going to happen. For one, you don't spend $50+ billion and not use them. Second, Feige himself said he would love to have X-Men in the MCU. Third, there is no way they can integrate the Foxverse in the MCU, because they've been so established as being separate universes that trying to say they're together now would be like fitting a square peg into a round hole. Not to mention there is so much that can be done with a properly integrated X-Men. The Foxverse made a number of changes fans dislike, which is why the MCU needs to solve them. It ended on a high note with Logan, time to start fresh.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#78005: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:05:20 PM

I don’t see how it would ruin the magic since Logan is still dead at the end of day.

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#78006: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:06:13 PM

The best X-men adaptation was the cartoon. The first movie was alright, but not really as good as the other franchises that came after it. The rest got so silly that the wolverine movie nearly killed the franchise.

I can see why Pearlmutter and the Marvel staff wanted the Inhumans - being on the moon or needing the Terrigen mists it's easy to excuse their sudden appearance.

The mutants as the underclass has been done to death in other media. Hell, I was in an RP of the Whateley Universe.

If Marvel is smart, they can slowly sneak in mutants and they should do a re-boot of the Xmen franchise.

The inhumans were never going to be popular because ...well their story makes them "inhuman".

The Xmen were, as Movie Bob puts it, a group that took kids who were outcast or looked down up and told them they were special. For those going to school in The '70s, The '80s and the early Ninties "I'm Charles Xavier and welcome to my school" was the equivalent of getting a message from an Owl for those in the late Nineties and the Turn of the Millennium.

If Marvel knows what it is doing, it will ease the X-men into their universe as backstory. Letting X-force or some of the newer titles serve as the basis of new movies.

Just as Harry Potter grew up and that series ended, Charles and Logan need to go into history and a new generation of X-men needs to take their place in the MCU.

edited 17th Dec '17 3:06:29 PM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#78007: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:06:41 PM

If anything, seeing X-23 live and thrive under Logan's shadow and become her own person would enhance Logan.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nyte Since: Oct, 2017
#78008: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:11:12 PM

[up][up][up]

Because some things are better left unexplained. It's better for us to imagine how mutantkind reformed and have closure on the whole saga than to see it dragged out and milked to no end. The ending of Logan is best left as a closing one, not one that leads to a sequel. Trust me, there are some things left to the imagination.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#78009: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:15:56 PM

I think Deadpool 2 is already going to ruin that.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#78010: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:48:56 PM

But the universe already did that once with the Inhumans.

On Marvel's TV division. The people making the movies don't pay attention to that.

And that would mean that the entire history of mutant struggle - whether against the likes or Trask, or between the X-Men and Magneto - has to disappear altogether, because it can not have remained unnoticed.

Well, yeah, that's the idea. Just like how bringing Spider-Man to the MCU ignored the previous Spider-Man films continuity.

I mean, it might in the early 20th century where the communication systems were still poor, but for mutants to somehow remain hidden until 2017? That does not work.

Magneto as a X-Men antagonist and a "starting point" of the X-Verse works because WWII kinda marked the start of the information era, an era where it is harder and harder to ignore what is going on in the world. It would be ludicrous that mutants could have remained hidden for ten years since Tony Stark revealed to the world that he was Iron Man.

Hasn't it always been the case for the X-Men that, while small numbers of mutants have existed throughout history, they didn't start appearing in massive numbers until shortly before the story begins? Hence why so many of the mutants we see are teenagers?

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#78011: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:55:15 PM

They should just use the Gifted universe, imo. That or use Avengers 4 as their DOFP.

edited 17th Dec '17 3:56:25 PM by ManOfSin

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#78012: Dec 17th 2017 at 3:58:55 PM

Because honestly, the whole Mutants being revealed to the public has already been explored on film.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#78013: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:00:28 PM

What I'm most looking forward to is a new Xmen animated series.

Now that Marvel has no reason to cut off it's own nose to spite it's face (via Perlmuter), maybe we can get a good one again.

Hell, they might even take a risk and not have Wolverine show up right away, perhaps trying a back to basics approach ala The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and The Spectacular Spider-Man with a team that's as close to the original Xmen as possible.

That's likely asking too much though.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#78014: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:01:14 PM

Still don't get why the notion of putting them into a parallel universe to the MCU is an idea so universally rejected. It would still be part of the MCU, in a way, but loosely connected enough that it can stand on its own. Just like the Defenders do.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78015: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:02:05 PM

The idea of mutants just having started isn't really a thing in the comics, where the Unmasqued World was really only a thing when the series first started out back in the real-world 1960s. It's not the movie canon I'm arguing against dropping, it's the idea of them having been a fact of life for decades and longer. They aren't anything new, they've just gotten harder to ignore— like the presence of different races, sexualities, psychological makeups, etc.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#78016: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:04:58 PM

Yeah, but in Marvel Comics canon, the amount of time lapsed since those 1960's comics where mutants first became known to the public is only supposed to be somewhere between 10 and 20 years.

[up] Wouldn't a sudden increase in the number of mutants work as a metaphor for regions that get a sudden influx of immigrants who are met with hostility?

edited 17th Dec '17 4:06:06 PM by RavenWilder

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78017: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:09:17 PM

I'd be fine with 20 years or so. The sliding scale is fine, but some sense of established history is preferable to starting from scratch or having them materialize wholecloth in the MCU as it is now. [up]That metaphor can still apply either way— mutants do, or did, occasionally crop up in large numbers in seemingly random places.

edited 17th Dec '17 4:11:30 PM by Unsung

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#78018: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:12:52 PM

Just have them been around, but ignored because Avengers or Shield. The underclass thing has been done with Inhumans already.

Just Makima.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78019: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:18:09 PM

It's been done poorly with the Inhumans, and it's not really a one-and-done kind of theme.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#78020: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:20:57 PM

@78006 Sure, but it is less and less believable that hundreds of people with sometimes incredible powers (and who might look like aliens or monsters) would remain unnoticed in an era where a single starving polar bear can be seen by millions of people in a few days.

The first X-Men movie happened before the social networks era, and it started with Magneto's struggle against ostracization an established fact - and the main members of the cast were adults. Then FC showed that mutants appeared in the Sixties, which means there were fifty years of a world knowing that mutants lived in it.

Saying "now, in the current MCU, in 2017, we will reveal that mutants have been living among us for decades" is silly. Especially since a number of prominent mutants have powers that are not exactly stealthy - you can imagine Kitty Pryde, Mystique or Charles Xavier staying under the radar, but Nightcrawler, Beast, Iceberg, Storm, Blink or Angel?

The Foxverse made a number of changes fans dislike, which is why the MCU needs to solve them. It ended on a high note with Logan, time to start fresh.

The Foxverse had two bad movies (TLS & Wolverine), one very disappointing one (Apocalypse), and the rest ranges from average to excellent - and we are talking about seven movies here, not just one that worked. Some mistakes were made, but saying that it needs the MCU to satisfy the fans is plain wrong. Days of Future Past and Logan are on par with the very best the MCU has to offer, and in the former's case, it was absolutely central to the entire universe.

@the comparison with Spider-Man fitting well into the MCU because the previous verses were ignored: it is not the same thing. Of course I am not advocating for a merge of the Fox & Marvel cinematic universes, and I know that the Fox continuity is all but over at that point. But you can insert Spiderman pretty much anywhere, because he is a single kid with powers, whose villains are very closely linked to him and to the city of New York, and whose fate has little to no influence beyond that city. Mutants cast a pretty big shadow on the universes they belong to, and if you want to add them to an existing universe, you are going to need some serious explanation for the obvious question "why now?" - at the risk of losing the lengthy racism and intolerance issues they faced, and that are at the basis of their most prominent storylines. The X-Men vs Brotherhood rivalry has a meaning because they are two faces of fighting against intolerance - peacefully, and violently. If the issue just arose, their existence would not be justified. You can't have Magneto go in two months from "I am a mutant" to "I am going to create the Brotherhood because humanity and mutantkind cannot cohabit", it would be silly. When AOS dealt with Inhumans in its second season, the established ones such as Jiaying or eyeless dude whose name eludes me had lived with their powers for quite some time, and their political positions were justified by the length of their existence and their experience living with "normal people". No politically significant Inhuman association was created when the terrigen created many new ones, because those were people who had barely experienced being Inhumans.

Plus there is that new show named Fox's The Gifted which is absolutely thrilling to watch and makes the abuse against mutants (and as of recently, the way mutants retaliate against that abuse) front and center of all storylines. Let's just say that its tone would not fit the film MCU, and it would be a real disgrace to see it discarded for family-friendly movies where social issues are definitely put on the back seat, if they aren't thrown out of the car altogether.

I honestly do think parallel dimensions are better than shoehorning mutants in the current MCU. A light-hearted one (on a large scale) with the main MCU, and the one with mutants. It's not like travelling between dimensions is impossible in comic book stories.

edited 17th Dec '17 4:23:09 PM by Julep

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#78021: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:28:07 PM

Vision did say that the number of superhumans were growing in the past few years in Civil War. So they can say that mutants have been known for sometime. They just weren’t talked about much.

I doubt Feige would forget about the social issues considering he is a X-Men fan and loves Magneto.

edited 17th Dec '17 4:28:37 PM by ManOfSin

Nyte Since: Oct, 2017
#78022: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:30:38 PM

There's nothing to say they can't just have them exist all along, that they retcon the story to where they knew they existed the whole time but were a small minority. After all, there were superheroes before Iron Man and weird stuff existed long before 2008. It's not that hard to stretch.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#78023: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:30:45 PM

I just don't think we need a rehash of inhum err mutant oppression. Like Mags is upset with certain mutanta getting attacked, but imagine others getting equal rights.

Just Makima.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#78024: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:33:16 PM

Yes, imagine all people having equal rights. People in the real world who don't have superpowers don't have that yet— that's why "rehashing" this struggle is kind of the point, here.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#78025: Dec 17th 2017 at 4:34:02 PM

[up][up][up] The MCU is ten years old now, it's way past Ironman's reveal. Considering how movies are produced, at best the MCU will be thirteen years old when mutants appear in it. Thirteen years without doing anything meaningful of any way.

edited 17th Dec '17 4:34:33 PM by Julep


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