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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77976: Dec 17th 2017 at 5:58:24 AM

...There's a ton of subtext (and not-so-subtext) dealing with social issues in the X-Men movies. Not really sure how you can argue otherwise.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#77977: Dec 17th 2017 at 6:05:51 AM

Yeah, the X-Men movies have plenty of scenes that are about social issues and themes. Off the top of my head, the scene with Iceman's parents in X2 has pretty clear real-life parallels.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#77978: Dec 17th 2017 at 6:38:29 AM

And the problem with the MCU in this regard, is that they haven't shown a willingness to willing go into those difficult areas either. I mean they didn't even want to do proper Nazis in WORLD WAR II. So do I trust them to do something like say, a concentration camp scene, no not really. Not at this point at least.

ManOfSin Since: Mar, 2015
#77979: Dec 17th 2017 at 6:45:31 AM

[up]x7

Not saying that there is anything wrong with Homecoming or the MCU. But that to many people Tobe Maguire is Spider-Man and any rebooted version would feel like a knock-off. IIRC, Kevin Feige said he wouldn’t recasted Ironman right away after RDJ leaves for similar reasons. Filmmakers at Fox also said the same thing about Wolverine.

edited 17th Dec '17 6:46:31 AM by ManOfSin

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77980: Dec 17th 2017 at 6:46:56 AM

But the scene is never followed up a meaningful way. It just sits there.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77981: Dec 17th 2017 at 7:03:38 AM

It follows up on it in the sense that the whole of the first two movies is pretty much one big metaphor, and largely the same coming-out metaphor, in much the same way that the analogy is used elsewhere in the franchise for being of a different race, ethnicity, or religion, or as a stand-in for a mental illness or disability, or for being different in any number of other ways. You can argue that it's overly simplistic in places, and that the first movie in particular goes off the rails with a final conflict that doesn't really directly address its main point, but taking these movies in the context in which they were released, ie. an America that wasn't remotely as tolerant of being gay, it really couldn't have been much more direct than it was. Which is still pretty direct.

edited 17th Dec '17 8:23:10 AM by Unsung

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#77982: Dec 17th 2017 at 7:15:39 AM

The Xavier/Magneto rivalry is also more relevant to the actual world than the Tony/Steve one in CW because you can directly draw the parallel with real-life figures fighting ostracization with different methods - there are some significant MLK/Malcolm X parallels in the Xavier/Magneto relationship. Tony and Steve might fight over a matter that is relevant in-universe but in itself, "having powers that threaten the balance of the world" is not a problem anyone in our world has.

And if we are talking about obvious parallels, Raven and Hank arguing over which one of their forms is the true one and which one they should show to the world is pretty transparent too.

edited 17th Dec '17 7:19:08 AM by Julep

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#77983: Dec 17th 2017 at 7:35:10 AM

Welp, been away for a while, but the looming acquisition of Fox by Disney seems as good a reason as any to get back into things. So first of all, hey everyone, good to be back.

On the current subject, I've always personally found that using mutants as a stand-in for genuinely oppressed minorities was more than a little flawed, at least when you try to go too deep with it. The primary issue is that acting as if any suspicion or paranoia towards a particular group of people is unjustified, in my opinion, flies out the window when said group of people are superpowered. If anything, the addition of superpowers is why I think the X-Men belong in the broader Marvel Universe: on their own, people being afraid of them isn't unexpected, it's par for the course when an unknown subset of people is capable of developing random destructive powers that they have no control over. It only becomes irrational when those same people are fine with Captain America, or Thor, or the Fantastic Four, or HULK, and that's what makes it actually work as an analogy for bigotry. Bigotry doesn't have a good justification, it doesn't make logical sense, it's just hate for hate's sake, and the X-Men only experience hate for hate's sake when taken in context with other superpowered beings.

Continuing on with that, I think it's really unfair to try to throw characters like Captain America under the bus by implying that they are somehow capable of stopping mutant racism and that it can't logically happen in the MCU because they exist. Mutants have been discriminated against in the comics for decades, despite the existence and (currently) efforts of other heroes, and the reason is that it's a complicated issue. It's still racism and discrimination at its core, and other superheroes can only do so much to quell that for the same reason they can't stop regular racism, or famine, or sexism: it's a social issue that takes active platforming and effort to stop, and a lot of superheroes' effort goes into saving people's lives so I'm willing to give them a pass on not being dedicated social activists as well. There's only so many hours in the day.

In fact, there's a really easy way to make mutant discrimination work with the presence of other superheroes, and that's simply to dial back the level of government involvement. Sentinels and mutant cures don't need to be government projects, they can simply be the result of civilians and private contractors with chips on their shoulders. The real conflict is in how ordinary people react to concepts like the Sentinels: the actions are horrible, but more troubling is the toxic mindset they reflect, and while you can take down robots all the ding-dong day, you can't punch a racist mind into not being racist, whether you're Cyclops or Spider-Man or Captain America.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77984: Dec 17th 2017 at 8:22:19 AM

That takes a lot of the bite out of mutants as a concept, and still means the past fifty-some years of discrimination didn't happen. It just doesn't seem worth it, for the sake of being able to put Wolverine on the Avengers roster.

edited 17th Dec '17 8:46:22 AM by Unsung

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77985: Dec 17th 2017 at 8:25:41 AM

The X-Men just kind of suck as a metaphor.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77986: Dec 17th 2017 at 8:26:55 AM

Eh. The metaphor doesn't have to be perfect to be functional, to be meaningful to people. If it were one to one, it wouldn't need to be a metaphor. It's an aid to understanding, and it works *because* you have to work a little to see it. It doesn't allow itself be taken for granted, and there's plenty of casual discrimination that happens not because people are deliberately racist, but because they can't even see what they're doing wrong.

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#77987: Dec 17th 2017 at 8:40:42 AM

Fair enough, but I don't think Fox did an especially great job with the "years of discrimination" angle anyways. And even if they did, it came at a lot of expense of the X-Men themselves.

Personally, I'm fine with downplaying the overt mutant discrimination angle (at least to the degree of "RAWR THE ENTIRE WORLD HATES THEM"), as long as they don't remove it, because I'd rather we get more focus on the X-Men as individual characters and on their new ability to interact with the rest of the broader Marvel universe. Frankly I think the X-Men were due for a bit of an update anyways: as an example, while I am absolutely not denying that Magneto as a character is at his most effective as a Holocaust survivor, the sliding timescale of the comics industry means that we're coming up on a point where that could probably use an update. I don't necessarily think anything is going to match the poignancy of him living through the Holocaust, but I'm sure they could attach him to another event that at least comes close without making the character too old in the vein of Iron Man and the Punisher, and I can't think of a better place to try it out than in the MCU.

They're in a similar situation to Spider-Man to me, where seeing Marvel's take on what classically makes the characters appealing would be nice, but it's already been done recently enough where it would probably lead to some serious audience burnout, and in this case you get the added difficulty of "integrating the classic stuff into the current MCU would be next to impossible".

edited 17th Dec '17 8:44:35 AM by Khfan429

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77988: Dec 17th 2017 at 9:35:47 AM

Michelle came more off as an expy of Jessica Jones secretly stalking Peter than MJ.

I mean, if they're building up to the climactic scene where MJ reveals to Peter that he's Spider-Man, that works. That's one of the big iconic Spidey/MJ moments: where Peter decides to reveal his secret identity to her, but she reveals that she totally knew already because she, like, pays attention and shit.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#77989: Dec 17th 2017 at 9:45:51 AM

Michelle's certainly smart enough to have worked it out already, given how Peter's mysterious disappearances keep coinciding with the appearance of Spider-Man.

Honestly, it's amazing that any hero without super-speed even manages to maintain a secret identity. No wonder most of the MCU ones don't bother.

edited 17th Dec '17 9:46:42 AM by Galadriel

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#77990: Dec 17th 2017 at 9:46:26 AM

"having powers that threaten the balance of the world" is not a problem anyone in our world has."

At best you can said a parallel between goverment inference(Tony) vs public inteference(steve) ross alude something like that in comparing Hulk to a nuke.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77991: Dec 17th 2017 at 9:48:52 AM

Well, Daredevil has the advantage of being blind and Spider-man has the advantage of nobody really expecting a child behind the mask.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77992: Dec 17th 2017 at 10:30:27 AM

In a city of 8.5 million people, the first thought when someone acts weird is probably not going to be, "Oh, he must be Spider-Man."

Like, sometimes he has to ditch out on things, but a lot of people ditch out on things and most of them aren't Spider-Man. Sure, he's never been seen in a room with Spider-Man, but it's not like Luke Cage, Foggy Nelson. or S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Leo Fitz has either.

edited 17th Dec '17 10:32:39 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#77993: Dec 17th 2017 at 11:33:14 AM

Isn't mutants being hated for decades a retcon in the Fox X-Men movies?

It's been a long time since I saw the original X Men, but the impression I got there was that mutants had only recently become something that the general public knew about.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#77994: Dec 17th 2017 at 11:54:42 AM

I will always stand by that mutants work best as a parallel to mental illness rather than anything. It's why Legion works so well.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77995: Dec 17th 2017 at 12:04:24 PM

I do think that Mutant work better as a stand in than ever. Because in reality, most Mutants aren't necessarily more dangerous than any random person could be with the right equipment.

Ao S did the whole discussion considering powered people and how dangerous they actually are....as well as drawing a direct parallel to a coming out by having a gay character being distraught that he would have to go through the whole process a second time after it was already difficult the first time around.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#77996: Dec 17th 2017 at 12:18:55 PM

I recall Ultimate Spider-Man had mutant prejudice parallel with treatment of Muslims post-9/11, Magneto flooding New York in Ultimatum being the fantasy version. Miles Morales' father distrusts mutants, and also lumps in other superheroes with them, with Miles trying to remind him the Human Torch isn't a mutant. Which can also parallel how Sikhs and Hindus are also targeted by anti-Islam hate crimes despite not being Muslim.

I think that could work in the films, that a few exceptionally zealous and dangerous mutants cause prejudice and governmental crackdown toward peaceful civilian mutants, but only if it's made clear the vast majority of mutants aren't capable of causing such massive disaster too.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#77997: Dec 17th 2017 at 12:51:49 PM

Yeah the angle could be mutants aren't frowned upon, but the villain ones along with those who cause damage might sour the public's opinion on them.

Just Makima.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#77998: Dec 17th 2017 at 1:00:44 PM

The biggest clue of Peter’s identity in Homecoming, I think, is him coincidentally showing up all the way in DC, despite being a neighborhood hero, while Pete was missing and showing up specifically - as far as Michelle knows - to rescue her and Peter’s friends.

It’s not much on its own, but it works as a “that’s when I started to suspect” moment.

edited 17th Dec '17 1:01:36 PM by KnownUnknown

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#77999: Dec 17th 2017 at 1:59:25 PM

Continuing on with that, I think it's really unfair to try to throw characters like Captain America under the bus by implying that they are somehow capable of stopping mutant racism and that it can't logically happen in the MCU because they exist.

I honestly don't expect Cap to solve anti-mutant racism more than I expect him to solve crime as a whole. But I would expect him to care about it, and be concerned, which no one ever did in the 10+ years of Marvel movies and shows we have seen in the MCU so far. That's the biggest problem with merging the X-Men in the current MCU.

The F4 can be added without any problem, because they do not represent an issue that potentially touches thousands or hundreds of thousands of people all over the country. But the X-Men?

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#78000: Dec 17th 2017 at 2:19:48 PM

Well, yeah, Cap hasn't shown any concern over the mistreatment of mutants, because he doesn't know that mutants exist. Same reason the debate over whether Tony Stark's technology can be replicated in Iron Man 2 doesn't bring up hyper-advanced aliens, because until Thor and The Avengers happened, almost no one knew those were real. Introducing mutants into the MCU obviously requires a case of The Unmasqued World.


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