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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#77776: Dec 9th 2017 at 6:45:20 PM

I think it seems fairly likely that Loki, as the one holding the scepter for most of the movie, would be most affected by it. The fact that he behaves differently from in Thor makes it even more apparent.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77777: Dec 9th 2017 at 6:48:57 PM

Something something eyes, something excessive cranial trauma, something Ultron

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#77778: Dec 9th 2017 at 6:49:10 PM

[up][up] Find you someone who looks at you like the Grandmaster look at Loki.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77779: Dec 9th 2017 at 6:50:29 PM

Loki doesn’t have the glowy eyes like Erik or Hawkeye; he uses the scepter to communicate with the Other, and to fight. And Black Widow appears to have no reaction to the stone when using the scepter to close the portal.

If it was intended as subtext, there should have been more telegraphing, like the shots of the stone during the “put on the suit” argument.

edited 9th Dec '17 6:51:36 PM by wisewillow

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#77780: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:12:37 PM

I don't think he's being mind controlled. We see the Avengers get into a big argument because of the Scepter. It can influence your mind in more subtle ways just by being around it.

edit: Heck, I'm willing to bet the vision of him meeting the Other is also a result of the scepter.

edited 9th Dec '17 7:13:09 PM by Kostya

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#77781: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:25:47 PM

Loki being manipulated by the Mind Stone is the only way that Thanos giving it to him makes sense.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77782: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:26:49 PM

If it was influencing his mind/actions, the film didn’t telegraph it very well. Retroactive explanation via Age of Ultron doesn’t count.

[up][up]I assumed the scene with the Other was Loki using the stone to video conference.

edited 9th Dec '17 7:29:54 PM by wisewillow

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77783: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:35:02 PM

Honestly, most of the stuff with the Mind Stone in the first movie is very nebulous and confusing, and they don't do a good job of explaining how it actually works.

I'm willing to cut some slight slack though since by Whedon's own admission they didn't know they were going to actually be introducing the Infinity Gems and building to the whole Thanos Myth Arc at that point.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#77784: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:40:41 PM

Every movie Loki's appeared in, he's tried to become ruler of a planet.

In Thor, he gets his brother banished shortly before Odin can hand him the throne of Asgard, making Loki the next in line, a position he tries to cement by currying favor with his Jotunheim revenge plot. In The Avengers, he cuts a deal with Thanos, give him the Tesseract in exchange for an army he can use to conquer Earth. At the end of The Dark World, he secretly usurps the throne and rules over Asgard by making everyone think he's Odin. And in Ragnarok, he tells Thor his long-term plan on Sakaar is to cozy up to the Grandmaster long enough to find an opportunity to bump him off then take over in his place.

Only thing that makes The Avengers different is that he opts for open conquest rather than behind-the-scenes machinations.

edited 9th Dec '17 7:41:51 PM by RavenWilder

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77785: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:43:57 PM

Ragnarok is the only one where he tried sleeping his way to the top

I like that at least each take-over plot is different.

edited 9th Dec '17 7:44:22 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77786: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:53:52 PM

To be fair, in Thor the throne takeover seems... accidental? I really think that the prank got wayyyyyy out of hand, but once Loki got handed the throne, he got on an ego trip. “I never wanted the throne! All I wanted was to be your equal” sounded pretty sincere.

The Odin takeover is also a bit of a prank, and implemented with 0 harm to anyone (except Odin, but Odin’s a dick who just tried to get all of Asgard killed fighting Malekith). Loki impersonates Odin rather than trying to take over in his own name. And all Loki does is watch theater, not execute or torture people. He’s king for the lulz.

[up] I like how the internet has basically unanimously decided that Loki banged Jeff Goldblum.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:02:46 PM by wisewillow

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77787: Dec 9th 2017 at 7:59:51 PM

Look, the subtext is there. Its barely even sub. Its getting out some whips.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77788: Dec 9th 2017 at 8:03:39 PM

Oh, it’s definitely there.

When discussing why Loki has so many costumes, Tom Hiddleston was asked:

“Is there like a Pretty Woman montage of him trying on different outfits?”

“TH: In my head there is. *laughter* In my head, Jeff Goldblum takes Loki out to Rodeo Drive and says, “Pick the finest fabric you can find. Let’s fashion you a suit.”

Oh my.

Edit: also just realized that Loki tells Thor to steal the ship used for orgies. Ohhhhh my.

edited 9th Dec '17 8:36:08 PM by wisewillow

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77789: Dec 9th 2017 at 9:17:20 PM

[up][up][up] At the time TDW came out it was assumed and supported by Word of God that Loki had Odin killed in order to take his place. So Ragnarok's reveal comes off as a bit of a retcon, although one approved by fans since it seemed like an extreme swerve after everything else that happened in TDW and the first Thor.

edited 9th Dec '17 10:17:19 PM by AlleyOop

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77790: Dec 9th 2017 at 9:22:35 PM

0.o I missed that particular Word of God and I really, really prefer Ragnarok’s take. I know actors obviously get less say in what’s canon, but Hiddleston definitely didn’t see Loki murdering Odin.

“Loki’s feelings towards his family members are complex, to say the least. I always thought that, even in the first film before he finds out that he’s not really related to all these people, that he would’ve been an incredibly useful vicepresident, as it were. It’s just that at the moment of Thor’s ascension he finds out he doesn’t belong there at all. So I never conceived of Loki’s emotional connections to Odin or Thor as malevolent. He just wants to have a go on the throne, which he does.”

edited 9th Dec '17 9:23:41 PM by wisewillow

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77791: Dec 9th 2017 at 9:55:53 PM

Hiddleston is known to take the side of and provide lots of Word of Saint Paul fodder for the "Loki apologist" side of fandom when it comes to his personal interpretation, so it doesn't surprise me. I'm not a huge Loki fan, but his adoptive family as a Morality Chain despite his complex feelings about this is definitely one of the most interesting parts of his character to me. I'm a sucker for family bonding. And I think Loki is more fun from a pure entertainment perspective as a genuinely morally ambiguous Jerk With A Heart Of Bronze than just an asshole who only helps his brother for self-gain.

Here's the interview by the way. Came out just a few days after TDW did.

The film is essentially over at this point, so the questions proposed by this scene deliberately go unanswered. How did Loki fake his death? How did he get back to Asgard? Most importantly, where is the real Odin? Is he alive? Is he dead? Is Loki holding him captive or did he actually do the unthinkable and murder his father offscreen?

MTV was on top of this question and went straight to the source to get an answer. First, they spoke to Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige, who did a terrific job of dodging the question entirely:

Like all of our plans at Marvel Studios, we know where we would like to go if given the opportunity. We have very good ideas whether the All-Father is with us or not.

However, director Alan Taylor was a little more blunt in his answer, confirming that Odin is definitely dead and that it was a specific decision they made in the process of developing the film:

That was a big twist. It took us a while to realize that we were actually going to kill him. And then it took us a while to realize that we were going to do that at the end.

As for Hopkins himself? Well, he's even more direct than his director:

He's dead. I've done two, that's enough.

So there you have it! According to the man who plays him and the director of the film he appears in, Odin is dead and fully replaced his his evil adopted son. Naturally, this is a status quo that could change at the drop of a hat (hence Feige's cagey answer), but for the time being, we can assume the one-eyed All Father of the cinematic Marvel universe is no more.

edited 9th Dec '17 9:58:28 PM by AlleyOop

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77792: Dec 9th 2017 at 10:06:18 PM

Alan Taylor can suck it. Thanks, Taika Waititi!

No blame to Hopkins; from the sound of it Hopkins was miserable filming TDW. Looks like he had fun on Ragnarok though.

Edit: and thanks for digging those quotes up; I hadn’t seen them before.

edited 9th Dec '17 10:09:11 PM by wisewillow

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77793: Dec 9th 2017 at 10:14:42 PM

It might not have originally been his choice. A lot of what I've read about the messy production of TDW suggests Taylor was a last minute hire, didn't have such a good time of his own and it was largely directed by committee. Genisys shows in hindsight he's not that great of a director on his own either, but it's entirely possible it was Kyle and Yost's decision.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77794: Dec 9th 2017 at 10:21:18 PM

Fair point. Whomever decided Loki straight up murdered Odin can suck it. And I agree; Loki is much more interesting as a trickster/helpful jerk/unhelpful jerk. Though I can and will argue against woobie status. His response to finding out he was adopted was trying to genocide Jotunheim, for God’s sake.

edited 9th Dec '17 10:21:53 PM by wisewillow

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#77795: Dec 9th 2017 at 11:34:26 PM

I feel like they finally nailed what works best for the MCU version of Loki's personality in what is ironically likely to be the last movie in the Thor series. Infinity War is likely going to feature, but it's unilkely he's going to get enough time to shine there - nor should he, really.

Characterization wise, the Loki we got in Thor 3 should've been the one we got in Thor 2, with Thor 3 building on that leading into Infinity War, but I'll take what we can get.

Edit: Finished watching The Punisher. Posting a laconic of my post from it's thread: this may very well be the nicest, most heroic version of the character I've ever seen. He ultimately has a very strong 80's cowboy action hero vibe, albeit one with very brutal and merciless means of taking down bad guys.

edited 10th Dec '17 12:40:45 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77796: Dec 10th 2017 at 1:37:12 AM

Thor: TDW was by all accounts a chaotic production. But the idea that Loki would murder Odin - eh, no. All Loki ever wanted was acknowledgement by Odin, by the Asgardians. That's why him trying to conquer the earth is kind of ooc because, well, he doesn't really care for earth. But since he was doing it under the influence of Thanos, it was never a problem for me. And the movie is btw perfectly clear about Loki not acting on his own. The only thing which isn't clear is how strong the hold Thanos has over Loki is and if Loki actually wanted to win the whole thing or was actually quite happy to go back to Asgard. But that is kind of the point of Loki's character, you aren't able to quite figure him out.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77797: Dec 10th 2017 at 2:23:23 AM

I feel like we're going to gets answers to how much influence Thanos has over Loki come Infinity War.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77798: Dec 10th 2017 at 2:37:21 AM

Oh, there are a lot of questions I can't wait to get answered. For example: Does Loki know Nebula and Gamora? Did Thanos torture him? Does Loki know about the Infinity stones?

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#77799: Dec 10th 2017 at 2:59:37 AM

I always kind of saw Loki trying to conquer Earth as him still trying to prove to his father that he would be a good ruler, seeing as Odin wouldn't give him a go in Asgard, just that with everything that happened to him, and the mind gem theory, he went with extreme measures. So I don't see him being that much ooc.

edited 10th Dec '17 3:07:25 AM by eligram

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#77800: Dec 10th 2017 at 3:01:28 AM

Also, fuck you, big brother. You like this stupid planet so much? Let's see how much you like it when I own it. I couldn't get dad hating you to stick, but I can take this from you.

My various fanfics.

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