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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77627: Dec 7th 2017 at 7:41:02 AM

The Gifted's is actually doing a pretty good job with that. Sentinel Services is the kind of vague, benign-sounding nomenclature that does seem like it sprung from the same kind of thinking as Homeland Security, and we've only seen the agents haul out robots once, and they're more like living metal zap-straps from the Matrix than gigantic humanoid robots.

It's not a matter of tone, though, it's the idea of suddenly introducing this element that wasn't there before. I feel like it'd just be Inhumans 2.0, or that one episode of Jessica Jones where her client turns out to be an anti-gifted person bigot, and that we'd struggle to get the same level of pervasiveness across. The big tentpole movies would, I suspect, just kind of shunt it to the side, because really, what is the difference between a person who was born with powers versus one who got them in accident or an experiment? Why does a god or an alien get a pass when a human doesn't?

And going back to what I said before— seeing mutants appear for the first time ever is a very different metaphor from mutants having existed for years, and the mechanisms for discrimination being entrenched to the point where people can't even see them when they're being directly pointed out.

It might be doable, but it sounds like a lot of work in order to fix something that's just finally kind of working again.

[up][tup][awesome]

edited 7th Dec '17 7:41:47 AM by Unsung

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#77628: Dec 7th 2017 at 7:48:04 AM

[up][up][up]The majority of mutants in the comics are just people who looked radically different. But since they don't have cool powers or are hot enough to fap to, they die by the buckets so the X-Men can angst.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#77629: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:00:06 AM

Mutants already have a hard time fitting in the Marvel Universe becomes it implies that most superheroes don't give two craps about some horrendous cases of anti-mutant racism, so it would be even worse in the MCU. They already limited Inhumans to TV shows, and it was already a bit weird to see some super prominent anti-Inhuman politicians on TV in AOS without at least one Avenger putting his foot down to tell them to shut the hell up and stop being racist douchebags.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77630: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:02:12 AM

I choose to believe Vision calls into a lot of radio stations

I have no basis for it, I just want it to be so

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77631: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:42:37 AM

[up][up]Because Inhumans are terrible and deserve terrible things to happen to them.

New Black Panther poster.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#77632: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:49:30 AM

[up][up] Headcanon accepted.

[up] The Inhuman royal family are a bunch of fascist douchebags, but no one even knows they exist. This is about the Inhumans who randomly went through Terrigenesis because Terrigen has been spreading through the oceans. They're a perfect mutant parallel because 1: They're not quite human, 2: Their powers are scary, and 3: The world doesn't really like anything to do with aliens after the Battle of New York.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77633: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:56:49 AM

I am all for going for a more grounded portrayal of racism, but that is even more a reason to do a separate verse with the X-men. Look, I am the first ready to defend the Marvel movies when someone claims that they are just dumb blockbusters. They are more than that, they have something to say about humanity. But there is no denying that the audience goes into a MCU movie with a certain expectation, and this expectation doesn't include a harrowing story about systemic racism. An X-men verse could cover ground which is a little bit too out there for MCU proper, it could go really dark and depressing. It could be on a smaller scale but more versatile in exchange.

Basically Marvel could go into the direction the last crop of X-men movies went anyway, but starting from a clean slate with a proper continuity and the option to do a giant crossover event once in a while.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77634: Dec 7th 2017 at 8:57:31 AM

Skydaisy and Yoyo are pretty delightful.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#77635: Dec 7th 2017 at 9:24:20 AM

They have never gone against their belief in co-existence. Because mutants were were known to the public before Xavier even met Scott and formed the X-Men. He never once considered mind wiping the world’s memory of mutants.

Should have replied to this earlier. When I said the X-Men have gone against their beliefs in co-existence, I was talking about the stuff they've been doing in recent years like isolating themselves on Utopia and getting into bed (literally and metaphorically) with mutant criminals, murderers and terrorists. Hell, we've never had a human X-Men member and the books haven't had any re-occurring human cast members since Nurse Annie in Chuck Austen's run.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#77636: Dec 7th 2017 at 9:34:27 AM

I would prefer it if Mutants were dealing with actual politics comparable to real life rather than constant extermination.

Mutants registration, a mutant cure and Magneto being convicted by a kangaroo court were poorly executed in the films, but genuinely interesting ideas.

shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#77637: Dec 7th 2017 at 9:42:31 AM

One good thing about starting over is that they could properly adapt Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix without the mishandling of the previous movies. Seriously, the design for Apocalypse is just stupid.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77638: Dec 7th 2017 at 9:46:34 AM

There is no chance in hell they already attempt to do another Phoenix or Apocalypse movie when the last one was only a year ago and the other isn't even out yet.

Expect this to be like Spider-Man: Homecoming, where they make a big effort to try and avoid immediately redoing villains and plots from the previous movies.

edited 7th Dec '17 10:00:51 AM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77639: Dec 7th 2017 at 10:01:12 AM

The big tentpole movies would, I suspect, just kind of shunt it to the side, because really, what is the difference between a person who was born with powers versus one who got them in accident or an experiment? Why does a god or an alien get a pass when a human doesn't?

They kinda don't. We just had a movie not long ago where the United Nations decided to crack down on the Avengers. And that was after Nick Fury openly stated that S.H.I.E.L.D. was trying to develop superweapons "because of HIM!" In Spider-Man Homecoming, that one gym coach outright called Captain America a war criminal.

Public opinion is not on the Avengers' side. Superheroes have not been received with open arms. Even Tony Stark was subjected to a congressional hearing demanding he turn over the Iron Man, and he doesn't even have powers. The stage is pretty well set for people to be like "Goddammit, there's MORE of them," if mutants show up.

edited 7th Dec '17 10:02:20 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#77640: Dec 7th 2017 at 10:12:09 AM

Also I could totally buy the Avengers staying out if the sentinel program. It's not like they've interviened on any other on goimg American atrocities. The angers haven't done anything about drone bombings, mass incaraination and prison labour, or drinking water being deprived from US citizens. When they've interviened on politics it's always because of some outside force as got its teeth into America like Hydra or Killian or Tony Stark.

You say that the mutant struggle would make the Avengers apolitical ass holes, but they already are. The issue is wheather we want to draw attention to it.

Which there is present for. Ultron was right when he said the Avengers want to save the world but don't want it to change.

edited 7th Dec '17 10:13:04 AM by Whowho

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77641: Dec 7th 2017 at 10:25:33 AM

Based on what I know about the Phoenix saga, this is not a story which you just do. You have to earn it. That was always the main problem with the X-men movies, it just jumped right into it without really doing the work for it. I doubt that Marvel would make the same mistake, they would carefully establish the boring version of Jean Grey first. Plus, I don't even think that this is the most interesting X-men story. I always felt that Rogue struggling with her powers and Beasts civil rights activism was way more compelling.

Also, the public is still largely behind the Avengers. Yes, there are some people crying for their head currently, but due to mistakes made and not because they have a general hatred for people with powers, special abilities or unique weapons. There is no systemic racism against the Avengers. And it would just make zero sense if there suddenly were something like this against mutants

Plus, there is also the practical point of view to consider. The MCU is already juggling a lot and will have even more to deal with once the Fantastic 4 join the fray (and I really, really pray that Marvel will be able to put together a good and successful Fantastic 4 movie in time for Stan Lee being able to see it). Throw in the X-men and it might reach the tipping point. By keeping the X-men separated, they wouldn't have this issue AND more creative freedom.

[up] There is a difference between the kind of racism which is within the system and which doesn't give you a specific target to fight (remember, on paper the laws in the US are fair), and a government approved division designed to hunt mutants.

edited 7th Dec '17 10:27:17 AM by Swanpride

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#77642: Dec 7th 2017 at 10:48:38 AM

"God, I love Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. " Sure but them they said that Hydra is in fact a super duper ancient alien cult to workship so parasite which mean that in a way yes, Ward is right Hydra arent nazis, they flirt with nazis but they arent anymore.

Bah.

If anything I like the inhuman as X men stand since it really drive the idea that anyone can be a mutant and they not being prepared to handle it, also as other said the idea of humanity being ore fearfull play contrast very well with some grups as muslism, who move on from "who cares to "treat" after the 9/11.

" there is no denying that the audience goes into a MCU movie with a certain expectation, and this expectation doesn't include a harrowing story about systemic racism"

Nonsense, many complains about marvel come from the idea they should play the typical expectation, they have every right if they dont want to tackle that theme but not becuase of that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77643: Dec 7th 2017 at 11:03:31 AM

Eh. Public opinion may or may not be on the Avengers' side (hard to say who the outliers are here, especially when it comes to characters in Spidey's movie since his whole life is suffering), but I don't think the overall tone of the MCU is really built to earnestly engage with mutant discrimination on the level I would want. Back in season 2 of AOS they had a shot at making Inhumans into a good stand-in for mutants and bringing that element into the MCU in a believable, thought-provoking way. Kinda feel like the Inhumans' ship has sailed, though. In a pretty big way.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#77644: Dec 7th 2017 at 11:41:14 AM

I would want mutants in the MCU if only to see them get better treatment. With exceptions like Magneto, Xavier, Logan, Jean, and Mystique quite a lot of these characters get shafted pretty badly. Emma got off-screen killed, Rogue became an idiot in Last Stand, poor Storm and Psylocke had few lines, and that is just off the top of my head. MCU mutants would hopefully flesh out some of these underutilized mutants like Cyclops for example.

edited 7th Dec '17 11:52:02 AM by Mizerous

Just Makima.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77645: Dec 7th 2017 at 11:48:46 AM

[up] I think most of us here agree that Marvel will do a better job with the x-men as a whole than Fox ever did, the question is more if they should stuff the x-men into the mcu or create an xcu for them.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77646: Dec 7th 2017 at 11:53:27 AM

Man, I would love to see Marvel Studios take on Rogue, if only to see her allowed to progress past the 90's X-Men animated cartoon show.

The show borrowed from her canonical version from the comics around that time: Carol Danver's powerset plus uncontrollable energy leech. Subsequent adaptations divorced Carol's powers from her, but also regressed her to keeping the uncontrollable energy leech. She's been able to touch people for a long time, but the adaptations refuse to ever grant her this because her superpower angst is one of the only character traits that casual fans really know about her.

In the adaptations, she's basically stuck in a perpetual limbo, never allowed to actually learn to control her abilities even though every adaptation puts her into the Xavier school to learn to control her abilities. Last Stand even went so far as to have her give up the X-gene as a tacit admission that she'll never be allowed by the writers to control her powers so she shouldn't even try.

I cannot emphasize this enough: Rogue is not Cyclops. She did not suffer brain damage as a child that robbed her of the ability to control her powers. The consistent portrayal of her powerset as totally uncontrollable is a product of conservative writers trying to regress her character to where she was when they were kids and not an actual character trait.

EDIT: Hell, some writers in the comics even like to power her up. There've been times where part of her powerset included the ability to recall the powers of anyone she's ever leeched, effectively turning her into a Swiss Army Mutant. At the drop of a hat, she can be Cyclops, Wolverine, and Storm all at once.

Rogue is an awesome character and easily has the potential to be among the most powerful mutants in the franchise, but she is constantly screwed by adaptations because people like her weak and angsty. She has a lot in common with Spider-Man in that regard.

edited 7th Dec '17 11:59:14 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77647: Dec 7th 2017 at 12:10:54 PM

Point of order, there was a human X-Men. He was from the future and his power, so to speak, is that he wanted to fuck robots

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#77648: Dec 7th 2017 at 12:12:55 PM

[up][up]

Kinda sexist then to constantly depower her for angst, isn't it? In the original X-Men trilogy she angsted over how she couldn't touch Iceman because of her powers and her arc kind of revolves around him.

edited 7th Dec '17 12:13:16 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77649: Dec 7th 2017 at 12:16:01 PM

I wouldn't even say that the writers are stuck in the cartoon show. I mean, that is what my perception of Rogue is based on, and that character was awesome. Tragic, but awesome.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#77650: Dec 7th 2017 at 12:37:34 PM

[up][up] She also regrets it the second she gets de-powered, so yeah Fox isn't the best with female mutants....

Just Makima.

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