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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77376: Dec 1st 2017 at 3:53:45 PM

While all the movies have varying degrees of Depending on the Writer, Whedon is the only one who seems to hold active disregard for others' work. However, he does come up with interesting enough material on his own and other writers are at least flexible enough to rework it and fold it into the overall characterization rather than fight back against what could've been treated as wrestling for control of the character.

[up][up][up][up] The Cap's shield moment was confirmed to be a Throw It In gag, much like the gauntlet in Odin's vault.

edited 1st Dec '17 3:57:15 PM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77377: Dec 1st 2017 at 3:59:28 PM

[up]A problem the movies are increasingly beginning to have is status quo changes happening offscreen, like Tony destroying all his suits at the end of Iron Man 3 and then being back in the suit in AOU with no explanation, or Tony and Pepper having separated in Civil War only to have gotten back together by Homecoming.

I guess not unlike the comics themselves, the MCU is subject to plot threads being dropped because of plan changes behind the scenes.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77378: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:02:11 PM

That's going to be a problem that increases the more and more characters we have in this universe and therefore contracts to manage and clash against each other's schedules.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77379: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:33:58 PM

[up][up] Honestly, this is above all a writer problem. We will have to wait and see what happens with the current franchises, but that Got G and Ant-man have more or less the same writers which worked well for part 1 in part 2 reassures me.

You have to consider that Ironman had no script when it started to shot, and Ironman 2 was rushed and had a lot of writing problems, so at the end, each movie was written by someone else. Same with Thor. They changed writers with every installation because, well, they never quite hit the mark. But the writers of Captain America did, so they were around for the whole Franchise as well as infinity war.

In addition until Civil War, there was this committee who gave notes to the writing team. Feige got rid of it, most likely for a good reason. Too many cooks in the kitchen. It is better to leave the writing to those closely involved in the universe.

Whedon, well, in his defence he had most likely already written Age of Ultron when The Winter Solder explored Natasha and Steve on a deeper level. And I really don't think that the biggest issue is him being in odds with other writers, since my biggest problem in Ao U is him being at odds with The Avengers.

Anyway, the MCU has improved from phase to phase. And considering that they are doing something nobody has done on this scale before, they are allowed a few missteps.

[up] More characters makes is a little bit easier in some regard, because they can now put inconsequential movies between the ones which will have a giant impact on the main plot line.

edited 1st Dec '17 4:35:12 PM by Swanpride

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#77380: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:35:19 PM

A lot depends on how you interpret Loki in the first Thor movie. Some people seem to think that much of his characterization in that movie was genuine, and things like Thor being banished, the revelation that he's a Jotun, or Odin going comatose were actual surprises to him. To me, the movie seemed to suggest that all those things were part of his incredibly complicated master plan (hatched before the movie began), so nothing we see of Loki prior to the climax is indicative of who he is as a person; it's all just an elaborate act he's putting on.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#77381: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:35:36 PM

@Unsung- You allude to something interesting I wonder about. While I haven't read that run, I know that The Ultimates are infamously really Jerkass takes on Marvel characters (with few exceptions). So, I wonder if besides having a costume and to some extent plotting influence, it also influenced how much The Avengers snipe at each other in the movie.

Also, I do agree that Loki does change a fair amount between movies. Like although the take in the first Thor movie is good in terms of a relatively sympathetic Loki and also supporting the genocidal conqueror idea, he doesn't particularly have a sense of humor, except at the beginning. Which is a bit of an omission for a trickster god.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77382: Dec 1st 2017 at 4:59:16 PM

See, the plan is so convoluted, and so affected by the shock of Loki’s Jotun heritage, that I figured it HAD to be on-the-fly impulse planning.

There’s some scenes of Loki being cheeky that got cut from Thor 1; I think at least one of them should have been kept. It sells Loki as part of the group.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77383: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:06:05 PM

Really late to a conversation where most have said their piece, but Loki's eyes do change color in Avengers for seemingly no reason. I think we later got confirmation that it meant nothing, but most of the speculation in the last few pages seems like the kind of thing that would get confirmed via Shrug of God.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77384: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:29:38 PM

Whedon does have an ear for dialogue, but there's a balance to be struck between a natural level of disagreement between people with different beliefs and politics and the self-indulgent angst that we got in AOU. That continues to make sense for Tony, with his giant brain and his Peter Pan complex, but it doesn't work for the rest of the team. And this is the problem with trying too hard to make everyone fit the mold RDJ created. I mean, they even tried to do the same thing with Ultron himself.

Cap comes off as a little more stodgy and conservative and Loki as more unambiguously evil in Avengers 2012, and that definitely comes from The Ultimates. In Ultimates 1, though, I'd actually say the characters snipe at each other less than in The Avengers. But then, the Chitauri are a lot more horrific, everyone's a bigger bastard, and you can definitely see the cracks which cause the whole thing to completely fall apart in Ultimates 2. Basically Ultimates 2 will have you questioning how you ever thought some of these people were ever heroes at all (they're more explicitly a pseudomilitary strike force than a superhero team), so it's quite a different animal. And in fairness, fighting space monsters is one thing, but acting as world police on foreign soil? Yeah, we should pause to question that. This came out in the wake of 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq, it's important to remember.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:50:26 PM by Unsung

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77385: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:31:19 PM

In Ultimates 1 they spent 70% of the story sitting on their asses waiting for something to justify their own existence and having conversations about who would play them in a movie adaptation

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#77386: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:34:41 PM

..Seriously?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#77387: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:35:58 PM

Wasn't Thor the only genuinely heroic one, but no one took him seriously because he thought he was the God of Thunder?

Then Loki tried to start Ragnarok in Ultimates 2 and everybody had to eat their hats.

My various fanfics.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77388: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:37:49 PM

Both Ultimates are very slow burns.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#77389: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:40:09 PM

Yep. You're not really supposed to like the characters too much, is the thing. Like, they kick ass when they can be bothered, but they're jerks. All still a part of the deconstructionist wave of the '90s.

The Ultimates originated the idea of Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury. Most of the character designs for the Phase One MCU owe a major debt to that series.

edited 1st Dec '17 5:43:51 PM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#77390: Dec 1st 2017 at 5:41:56 PM

For as much shit as we give Bendis nowadays, and rightly so because he's become absolute garbage, Ultimate Spider-Man was so good that it justified the continued existence of a shitburger of a universe for more than a decade.

My various fanfics.
XJTordecai Watch the seventh wave Since: Jun, 2013
Watch the seventh wave
#77391: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:01:51 PM

Alright, since I've caught up with the MCU movies from 2015 onward, I decided to come up with a ranking for them (that will probably change over time). My opinion obviously, going from my least favorite to my favorite:

7. Avengers: Age of Ultron (only one I think is outright bad)

6. Doctor Strange

5. Ant-Man

4. Captain America: Civil War (this and Ant-Man were close and in fact often change positions)

3. Spider-Man: Homecoming

2. Thor: Ragnarok

1. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2

I'll try and remember to watch Captain America: The Winter Soldier sometime since I often hear it's one of the best in the MCU. Not sure if I can be bothered to watch most of the stuff from 2013 and before.

edited 1st Dec '17 6:04:43 PM by XJTordecai

On my wave, passing oooooooon
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77392: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:14:59 PM

Oooh, rankings!

Not on my list because I refuse to watch it: Doctor Strange

6. Avengers: Age of Ultron (I DESPISE this movie)

5. Ant-Man (Meh)

4. Spider-Man: Homecoming (Really liked it but didn’t get attached to it)

3. Captain America: Civil War (Some spectacular highs and some depressing lows)

2. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (The emotional themes!!!! The music!)

1. Thor: Ragnarok ( AAAAAAAAH oh my god, Valkyrie and Heimdall and the characterization and the cinematography and the music and the KICKASS OF EVERY MOMENT.)

edited 1st Dec '17 6:18:25 PM by wisewillow

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77393: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:27:21 PM

The Ultimates originated the idea of Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury. Most of the character designs for the Phase One MCU owe a major debt to that series.

Not just originated. It contractually obligated the idea.

Fun Fact: Marvel made an agreement with Jackson over his likeness rights so that Ultimate Nick Fury could be a dead ringer for him. As part of the agreement, Jackson would be allowed to play the character if they ever made a movie featuring him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#77394: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:41:42 PM

Tony And Valkyrie: https://imgur.com/a/99S8b

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77395: Dec 1st 2017 at 6:52:52 PM

Loki is being the adult. Good lord we're all doomed

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#77396: Dec 1st 2017 at 7:28:44 PM

" I think the first time I've actually liked Tony was in Civil War and Homecoming, even though I can admit that they are following on from character beats established in Age of Ultron."

To me the best tony was in Iron man 3 since he was awfull state but manage to overcome it(sure it was weird he get over is PSTD but I will give a pass) I HATE dude bro from AOU and the awfull mess he is in CW.

Anyway, speaking of Tony and Cap...I feel a intersting piece of caraterization go away from Steve, the idea he was a soldier without a fight and was a little bit eager to have enemy to kick since the war was over, at least tony seen to think that way considering what Ultron(who is pretty much Tony Stark Jr) said to think in south africa.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77397: Dec 1st 2017 at 7:36:27 PM

He's basically Big Boss now.

Squatting on T'Challa's couch telling him about this rad idea for a nation for soldiers

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#77398: Dec 1st 2017 at 7:44:15 PM

Punished Cap- A hero denied by his homeland.

Bucky: Why are we still here? Just to suffer. Every night I can feel my arm and my hand even my fingers. The memories I've lost, the comrades I've lost, won't stop hurting. It's like they're all still there. You feel it too, don't you?

edited 1st Dec '17 7:44:56 PM by MadSkillz

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77399: Dec 1st 2017 at 7:47:50 PM

I mean, we've discussed it before but you could definitely get a wacky miniboss squad out of Cap's renegade Avengers. The Dead Cobrahound Avengers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#77400: Dec 1st 2017 at 7:58:45 PM

As long nobody start using nanomachines....everything goes to hell when people use nanomachnes....

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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