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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#77326: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:21:56 PM

[up][up][up] and [up][up] Yeah, pretty much that. I'd also ascribe the difference partly to AOU not being a very good movie. But besides that, the different presentation does make sense. In The Avengers, the Hulk is just a feared Humanoid Abomination who has a bit of a grudge against Natasha because Banner has a bit of a grudge against her (which makes it really questionable that the two hook up later, but that's another discussion entirely...) By the time of AOU, the Avengers are more used to Hulk and trusting of him, so the fear is more comedic. And in Thor 3, the Hulk has really "settled down", so Loki's (understandable) fear of him is understandably much more comedic.

Edit- Another thought is that while I did find effectively the frightening framing of Hulk in The Avengers, despite my issues with it serving to "damsel" Natasha, in retrospect, I think Whedon really overplayed the idea of the Avengers as being these very flawed and mentally unbalanced people who don't really get along with each other, and the take on the Hulk was one element of that.

edited 1st Dec '17 12:26:18 PM by Hodor2

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77327: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:40:22 PM

The Avengers has not aged well. There are a lot of pretty substantial characterization problems that I noticed when I saw it for the first time in a while last weekend.

Cap is a bit too stiff, and too inclined to fight with Tony and initially follow the rules. Tony is more obnoxious than usual, Natasha feels rather flat, and Loki is a completely different type of character than in the first Thor movie.

In particular, the “freedom from freedom” and “made to be ruled” speeches are... creepily prescient of current fascist and authoritarian politics, and make no sense coming from a god of MISCHIEF. Loki is inherently chaotic, and the “wanting to rule Earth” angle makes no sense. If Loki wanted to mess with Earth to mess with Thor, that’d make sense. If Loki had to fetch the tesseract and in exchange would get revenge on Odin, that’d make sense. But ruling Earth? Nope.

edited 1st Dec '17 12:45:45 PM by wisewillow

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#77328: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:44:39 PM

I think Cap’s initial rules following is in character. It’s not until after Phase 2’s discovery and the events of TWS that he stopped giving a dang about upper legal authority. First Avenger Cap turned himself in after disobeying orders. TWS Cap didn’t even show up for the Congressional hearing or the UN one in Civil War.

edited 1st Dec '17 12:47:06 PM by Tuckerscreator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77329: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:46:16 PM

He broke into a secure area to find out what SHIELD was up to.

That was also a thing he did. In Avengers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#77330: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:46:25 PM

Steve got his start as Cap by ignoring a direct order and going AWOL to save Bucky.

At the beginning of the helicarrier scenes, Cap’s fight with Tony is over following orders. That didn’t make sense with Cap’s characterization.

edited 1st Dec '17 12:48:30 PM by wisewillow

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77331: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:53:14 PM

[up][up][up] I think Cap's always had a rulebreaking streak to him. He was already pretty willing to buck the rules in the first Captain America. Both when it came to inventing identities to keep volunteering in the army, and when it came to saving Bucky and the Howling Commandos. I've seen the Fan Wank that he's a lot more inclined to follow orders in Avengers because he's so disoriented after waking up in the new era and is just defaulting to what he finds "safe", which I can kind of buy. You're absolutely right that TWS is the point where he went full-out with challenging authority.

[up][up][up][up] I was also incredibly bothered by Loki's portrayal after going back to the individual Thor movies. That he's this way because of a temporary bout of insanity is the typical excuse that's given for it, and later canon entries seem to suggest that's indeed the case. It's the only way I can reconcile them since he's so radically different (and IMO way less compelling) than he is in the solo films.

edited 1st Dec '17 12:54:21 PM by AlleyOop

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#77332: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:58:09 PM

Considering he was holding the Mind Stone which has been shown to have Mind Control properties in both Avengers movies I think it's clear Loki was being manipulated the entire time.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#77333: Dec 1st 2017 at 12:59:55 PM

[up][up] That was part of what I didn't like Avengers either. It felt like they needed to have a simple straightforward bad guy so they could keep things streamlined and focus on the character interactions of the main group, which isn't a super duper bad idea from a pragmatic story focus standpoint, but Loki doesn't fit into that role super well.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77334: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:03:35 PM

[up][up] At the time it wasn't made clear that the Scepter had the Mind Stone (hence the scepter starting off as blue, the need for the Tesseract to empower it in the first place). So that's more likely a happy accident that they were then able to work into the overarching lore.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77335: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:05:44 PM

Which is very fitting for comics, really.

A lot of stuff that has become beloved canon came later and was lucky enough to fit the previously established facts with some squinting, butter, and shoving.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#77336: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:06:43 PM

The Scepter also caused the Avengers to get angry at each other. Even if it wasn't always the Mind Stone it's clear it could influence people.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#77337: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:09:11 PM

Re Loki: It is established in The Avengers that Loki is under the control of Thanos to a certain degree. Not necessarily due to the mind stone, but the Other is able the threaten him, so he is kind of a rat in a cage who pretends to be the cat instead, because he is very prideful.

Re: Steve and Tony: There is a LOT of subtext in that exchange. Tony complaining that Steve is the guy his father constantly bragged about shows that Tony harbours a lot of resentment towards Steve because he was the ideal Tony never felt he could live up to. (Though the true reason why Howard was so obsessed with Steve was actually that he felt that Steve was the one thing he built in live which was unquestionable good - see Agent Carter season 1 for context).

And now consider Steve's perspective. Yes, he had always a rebellious streak in that he did what he felt right no matter what orders he had, but he is still a soldier, and he believed in consequences. When he freed the soldiers he was ready to accept punishment for this. He never got one, but that doesn't change that Steve was well aware that he broke the rules and being a soldier, the army had every right to punish him accordingly. From his perspective Tony flying around in his suit whenever he likes with no restrains on him whatsoever must look childish and irresponsible. To him Tony is some millionaire who plays war.

That doesn't mean that Steve won't listen when somebody warns him that something questionable is happening. Or that he doesn't pay attention. The reason why he readily teams up with Tony for the final battle is not because of some bloody card or because there is no choice, but because he just worked with Tony on repairing the engine, and in this situation he noted that Tony did risk to end up between the fans for the sake of the ship. At the same time Tony got some satisfaction due to being allowed to direct Cap during the repair job. It's the first building stone for them to reassess each other.

The fun thing about all this is that by Civil War the have changed roles, and it makes perfectly sense.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#77338: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:15:27 PM

At the beginning of the helicarrier scenes, Cap’s fight with Tony is over following orders. That didn’t make sense with Cap’s characterization.

Cap believes in following orders, but he also believes in going Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right! when the situation calls for it. He also believes in taking responsibility for the consequences of ones actions - whether he has a good handle on what that means is up for debate, and what it he thinks the right way to take responsibility is depends on the situation (in TFA meant genuinely giving himself up for judgment, while in CW he didn't give himself but instead stopped being Cap and presumably dedicating himself to protecting Bucky - who he also sees as his responsibility), but he doesn't ever stop believing it.

His gripe with Tony in the first Avengers movie is that he believes Tony is flaunting orders and authority for the sake of his own ego rather than for any good reason, and that he does so without regard to consequences.

edited 1st Dec '17 1:21:39 PM by KnownUnknown

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77339: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:37:49 PM

Tony also comes off as extremely unprofessional, which is part of why Steve dislikes him initially. He first shows up on the scene blasting rock music and then proceeds to crack jokes and insult Steve, which is why Cap annoyed asks "Is everything a joke to you?!" later on.

Steve doesn't always obey orders but he's usually a responsible and professional soldier when in the field, while Tony is anything but.

edited 1st Dec '17 1:38:36 PM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77340: Dec 1st 2017 at 1:57:04 PM

As Joss put it in the DVD commentary, Steve's a man of the people. Tony is not a man of the people. He's the rock star. It's his world; we just happen to live in it.

An important aspect of Tony is that he isn't a rebel or a conformist. He's a narcissist. He'll follow orders if he agrees with them. He'll take your orders, shove them in a drainpipe, but still go do what you wanted done in his own way if he likes the idea but thinks your way is stupid. And if he straight up doesn't like your orders, he'll go behind your back to do what he wants and then put you on hold out of spite.

So far as Tony's concerned, there's only one legitimate authority, its name is Tony Stark, and it supercedes all allegiances or affiliations. This makes him, at best, a volatile ally for any legal organization, as seen in Avengers where Tony promptly started hacking into S.H.I.E.L.D.'s files on a lark the moment he was invited onto the Helicarrier and again in Civil War when Tony flagrantly ignored Ross's orders because they didn't gel with what he wanted to do.

As DnD alignments go, Tony's basically Neutral Good, with the "Neutral" being governed predominately by his ego. He'll align with or screw the rules whenever it serves whatever his personal opinion in the moment is about how best to fix the world.

edited 1st Dec '17 2:01:46 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#77341: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:00:28 PM

Yeah, I always attributed the difference in characterization between Thor Loki and Avengers Loki to the Scepter.

Not, like, total personality-erasing mind control like Loki used on Hawkeye and Selvig. Just subtle little messages to his brain to keep him working toward Thanos's goals, and perhaps delivering some speeches on his behalf, without really realizing he's acting out of character.

A lot of people try to use that to absolve Loki of his actions in Avengers, so it's understandably a bit of a stigmatized interpretation, but I saw it as just cruise control for a car already going down Evil Boulevard.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77342: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:05:39 PM

This was going to be an edit but a post happened.

As seen in Civil War, the best way to get Tony onboard with a thing is to put him in charge with it. However, do that at your own peril, because even to a commanding officer, Tony doesn't care what you think.

[up] I always attributed it to the abuse he suffered at the hands of Thanos and The Other. Loki always struck me as an broken peon begging table scraps from his master. We actually see The Other physically torture Loki to make a point while Loki just stands there and takes it without even the slightest effort at resistance.

The reveal that the Mind Stone was in the scepter also helps, but it seemed pretty clear even without it that Loki's erratic behavior was not entirely of his own free will.

Which is not to say he should be absolved of anything, mind you. Loki is a victim, but he is also an asshole. We have a trope for that for a reason.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77343: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:11:59 PM

We actually see The Other physically torture Loki to make a point while Loki just stands there and takes it without even the slightest effort at resistance.

Wait, when was that?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77344: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:20:42 PM

During Loki's flashback to his meeting with The Other and Thanos. The flashback ends with The Other threatening Loki if he screws up, and drops a line about Thanos showing Loki a new meaning of pain. As he does this, he grabs the side of Loki's face and we see Loki strain with agony from the searing thing The Other is doing to him.

Loki stands there and takes it obediently, offering no attempt at defending himself.

edited 1st Dec '17 2:23:23 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#77345: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:21:32 PM

Was that a flashback? I was under the impression that they were communicating with him through the stone.

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#77346: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:24:26 PM

It's not really clear, but I'm leaning towards flashback because it'd be kind of awkward for them to be agreeing on the plan halfway through Loki carrying it out.

There are other bits throughout the movie that suggest Loki's "plan" isn't really meant to make sense, up to and including the fact that, like, every single Avenger gets an opportunity to tell Loki that his plan is stupid. But it's this moment, I feel, that makes it pretty clear that Loki is not acting of his own free will, but as a tool beaten into serving Thanos.

He's erratic, doesn't think things through very well, and is unusually visceral in his violence, as is often the case with abused people lashing out for any semblance of power and control.

edited 1st Dec '17 2:25:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#77347: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:25:24 PM

So how the hell did he fall into Thanos's hands anyway?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#77348: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:27:21 PM

Could be that Loki was basically told if he attempted to fight back Thanos would harm someone close to him and he didn't want that to happen

But yeah,mind control is a good excuse for his behaviour

edit:> So how the hell did he fall into Thanos's hands anyway?

I don't think he fall into as much as walked blindly into Thanos's control

edited 1st Dec '17 2:29:10 PM by Ultimatum

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#77349: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:28:50 PM

[up][up]The wormhole he fell into at the end of Thor somehow transported him to where Thanos was chilling.

Which is a Contrived Coincidence but hey, superhero movies run on those I guess.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77350: Dec 1st 2017 at 2:28:55 PM

He fell off a bridge

At the very least, its clear that Thanos has been keeping an eye on Asgard since Thor 1. He keeps showing up at opportune moments.

edited 1st Dec '17 2:29:45 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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