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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#76876: Nov 26th 2017 at 4:41:21 PM

Bryan Singer's own controversies as a sex offender

O___O'!

(Vomits)

WHY?!

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76877: Nov 26th 2017 at 5:26:02 PM

When I go see a MCU movie I expect to see a brightly-colored movie with conversational humor, a character-driven plot centered around a snarky white guy, with very solid action scenes, where a hero overcomes some kind of personal issue (lack of trust in others or lack of confidence, usually) in order to face the (usually vaguely defined by one or two of the seven deadly sins) threat of the week - but where the hero will never be actually proven wrong, it's by being his awesome self that he'll solve the problem - where the rhythm smoothly moves from act to act without a Wham moment that totally subverts my expectations except maybe for the "actually there is a Bigger Bad" moment which doesn't really matter because neither the previous nor the next villain are particularly endearing, and where I know modern social issues won't be touched with a ten-foot pole, or will be evoked but quickly dismissed so as not to alienate any viewer.

So, lets go over the criticisms one at a time: snarky white guy... fair enough, though Tony Stark, Stephen Strange, Scott Lang, Peter Parker, and Peter Quill are all different flavors and amounts of snark. Tony's cynical, Stephen's arrogant (and he doesn't snark nearly as much as the rest), Scott doesn't snark as much as Tony either, Parker has the classic playful Spider-Man quips, and Quill is goofy and rauchy. Either way, Steve, Bruce, and Thor are pretty light on the snark, as is T'Chala.

Hero overcomes a personal issue: literally every movie ever. If your protagonist doesn't overcome some kind of personal issue in your movie, you've made either a shitty or very risky and experimental movie.

The hero will never be proven wrong: not really? They are still the main character. They grow as a person out of the particular character flaw focused on in the film, but that doesn't mean they stop being themselves or lose other parts of their personality. The personal issue they overcome is always something holding them back from being even more awesome, so it makes sense that they'd win by being awesome after overcoming whatever was holding them back.

Weak and shallow villains... again, fair enough. They have been getting better recently, though.

No Wham moment: not every movie needs a plot twist. Some movies are made worse by adding an unnecessary plot twist in just to catch the audience off-guard. A lack of a plot twist, in and of itself, isn't much of a criticism. It's not like the MCU hasn't done great plot twists before, either. As an example: in Spider-Man: Homecoming Vulture actually being the father of Liz and learning Peter's secret identity was a fantastic plot twist that completely changed the dynamic of the film.

Modern social issues not being addressed: I agree partially, but there's a case to be made that it's not necessary. Movies can serve a purpose of escapism, and Superhero movies traditionally are the most escapist of all fiction, so it makes sense that the MCU would try and stay away from social issues. My partial disagreement comes from that they have addressed social issues in some of their films. From security vs freedom in Winter Soldier, to conscription vs vigilantism in Civil War, to blue-collar issues in Homecoming, they've dabbled in social issues here and there.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76878: Nov 26th 2017 at 6:00:16 PM

Hero overcomes a personal issue: literally every movie ever. If your protagonist doesn't overcome some kind of personal issue in your movie, you've made either a shitty or very risky and experimental movie.

Not really. It isn't the case in either Wonder Woman or The Dark Knight. The issues they overcome are not personal, they are facing adversity, but not a significant personal flaw. Batman is not responsible for the Joker, and Wonder Woman isn't responsible for World War I - her lack of savviness about the real world is not the main obstacle during her journey.

The personal issue they overcome is always something holding them back from being even more awesome, so it makes sense that they'd win by being awesome after overcoming whatever was holding them back.

I will quote Film Crit Hulk who will always say it better than I do.

Because here's what (almost) every single post-phase one Marvel movie is "about" on the dramatic level of the storytelling: "I'm awesome and/or right! But everyone around me is telling me to wait, be humble, or that I'm wrong! But I wanna go nuts and get ahead of myself! Oh, I got ahead of myself and there was a surprisingly mild consequence to this dangerous thing and I feel bad, so here's a brief moment of humility that doesn't actually stick. Now I'll just wait run around, not actually change, and then just do the same exact thing I was doing before to prove that I'm awesome/right/or learned some lesson I didn't actually learn... Yay, I did it! I win!"

Seriously, that's the dramatic track of these movies now. There's Tony Stark in Avengers 2 (Trust me this time! Even though literally nothing is different about what I'm doing!) There's Dr. Strange, the egomaniac who blows through life, gets hurt, then proceeds to behave the same reckless way in the spiritual world. There's Tony and Cap not learning any actual lessons from each other, nor learning anything in Civil-War. I, uh, pretty much have no idea what Thor: The Dark World is trying to say on any level. And Scott Lang already begins Ant-Man as the reformed criminal everyone tells him he has to grow out of being (while simultaneously asking him to be a criminal again). And now it's Peter Parker's "journey" to adulthood in Homecoming.

He adds that the emotional weight of Homecoming is in large part lost due to the erasure of Uncle Ben's character.

From security vs freedom in Winter Soldier, to conscription vs vigilantism in Civil War, to blue-collar issues in Homecoming, they've dabbled in social issues here and there.

I agree about TWS. CW's weight is lost in large part because, in the grand narrative, Tony's hubris is ultimately the source of all problems, so the movie needs to give Cap & his allies a string of bad luck (the failed first mission that oh so happens to be pinned on the former Sokovian terrorist, and the most respectable member of Tony's team being grievously injured during their fight) on top of Zemo's plans to ensure that there is something akin to balance on the issue (they could have made Zemo a much more grey villain, but they decided that he had to be evil to being with, even before losing his family - that really softens the punches). As for Homecoming, like with Zemo, Vulture gets a few sympathy points for being lower-class, but ultimately behaves like every other villain, to the point that the hero himself isn't ever faced with the actual social consequences of fighting him (it only becomes personal because he is his GF's father, which while unexpected was also unnecessary if you wanted to do a social commentary).

edited 26th Nov '17 6:08:01 PM by Julep

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76879: Nov 26th 2017 at 6:28:24 PM

Batman is not responsible for the Joker

What? Are you telling every comic book that asks why Batman hasn't killed the Joker is wrong?

Madness.

One Strip! One Strip!
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76880: Nov 26th 2017 at 6:35:07 PM

the failed first mission that oh so happens to be pinned on the former Sokovian terrorist, and the most respectable member of Tony's team being grievously injured during their fight

It's almost like they thought that they were the best suited for those story beats, and that they thought those would be interesting stories to tell with them. But that can't be it.

Come on, man.

hey could have made Zemo a much more grey villain, but they decided that he had to be evil to being with, even before losing his family - that really softens the punches

You're referring to his work with the Sokovian black ops squad? Because that's mostly used as a way to explain how he acquired the skills he utilizes - it's not really used to paint him as evil.

Oh God! Natural light!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76881: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:25:54 PM

They went out of their way to make it clear that Zemo despises HYDRA because of its villainy. Sounds to me like their intent was to make sure Zemo was more sympathetic. And I agree that the comment about him working for Sokovian black-ops was to give him a plausible reason for his expertise.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76882: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:27:43 PM

Do they ever even call it black ops, or was it just intelligence and security?

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76883: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:29:12 PM

I believe they called it a kill squad.

Oh God! Natural light!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76884: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:32:44 PM

Yeah, you're right. EKO Scorpion, according to the MCU wiki.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#76885: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:42:33 PM

I know it's kind of a tautology that villainous characters are going to do bad things, but besides the special ops background explaining Zemo's skills, it strikes me that a normal person's response to Avengers-related collateral damage was that of Alfre Woodard's character and no one would enact a plan like Zemo's who wasn't at least a bit morally iffy to start. But at the same time, the movie does frame him as sympathetic. Besides the Hydra scene, there's the fact he feels terrible about killing an innocent person as part of his plans and always intends to be killed at the end of things(and I think believes that this is a just outcome).

On the other hand, I'm not sure how deliberate, but there's seemingly a parallel with the first season of Agent Carter and how that version of Dr. Faustus carries out a similar somewhat justifiable revenge plan, and he was similarly a shady person to start with. Way worse than Zemo though I would think, even without seeing any of Zemo's past.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76886: Nov 26th 2017 at 7:45:38 PM

Watching the leak again I have to say I'm pretty impressed with Dave Bautista's acting when he talks about finally being able to get revenge for his family.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76887: Nov 26th 2017 at 8:02:13 PM

Is anyone able/willing to post a mirror now that the video is gone?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76890: Nov 26th 2017 at 9:42:40 PM

Pretty cool. Really curious to see how they handle Star-Lord on the whole. So far they already seem to be able to let him be his goofy self without sabotaging Drax's serious tone.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76891: Nov 26th 2017 at 9:49:25 PM

While I agree that Spider-man: Homecoming makes a mistake by not mentioning Uncle Ben at all (not that I wanted a complete flashback, I would have been happy with a line that Peter feels guilty about his death, which would have perfectly fit into his talk with Aunt May), I also think that the movie adds a lot of weight which the whole franchise previously lacked when Peter is trapped under the concrete and breaks out in tears. It's my favourite moment in the whole movie, because it is a great reminder that, Superpowers or not, Peter is still just a kid and going up against scrupulous adults he can be over his head pretty fast.

Also, some would say that Diana kind of circling back in Wonder Woman to her original beliefs instead of growing as a character is one of the biggest weakness of the movie. Though I agree that WB in general favours a theme driven approach to their movies which is frankly a good thing when they pull it off (nothing is as unbearable as a movie which thinks it is smart but is just pretentious), because it fits their characters better. But Marvel movies aren't about gods, they are about humans who are constantly confronted with problems way above their pay grade, and they are way more interested in exploring the human nature than going all philosophical on the audience. And that is not a bad thing either. Exploring human nature is a huge chunk what storytelling is about.

Anyway, my point is that it is kind of odd to complain about this. Those are very basic plot points which are present in the majority of movies out there. When I hear a complain like "they are all the same" I am thinking more along the line of the original Spider-man trilogy, in which every single movie was about Peter pining over Mary Jane, doubting if he should be Spiderman, defeating a crazy villain who is the victim of a science experiment gone wrong and rescuing Mary Jane at the end of the movie. Comic book movies have come a long way since then. The love interest is no longer obligatory, the villains come in all shape and sizes, and instead of constantly moping the heroes actually enjoy being heroes once in a while.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76892: Nov 26th 2017 at 10:59:43 PM

God, Peter being pinned under concrete, crying and screaming desperately for help, was such a good scene. It was that scene that cemented Tom Holland as the best live-action Spider-Man performance for me. Homecoming did so much right. Most of all, it actually made Uncle Ben's message of "With great power comes great responsibility" feel omnipresent throughout the film more than any other Spider-Man film has without even mentioning it once just by making that into the central theme of the film.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76893: Nov 27th 2017 at 4:18:12 AM

[up] The whole third act of Spider-man: Home-coming is what makes this so great. Up until this point it was just nice fluff, kind of fun and really gutsy, but it felt a little bit inconsequential - and then they go all out on it. I didn't even mind that they tied the villain into Peter Parkers personal live AGAIN, because everything about it was just so good, down to Peter doing the right thing in the end, no matter what this might cost him down the line. Which gets bonus points for subverting what usually happens when a villain figures out a secret identity.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#76895: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:07:37 AM

[up] So The Wasp may appear after all...

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76896: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:10:30 AM

Nope. It's just a promotional cast thing. That's why Thor and Cap are in old costumes.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#76897: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:12:24 AM

[up] What if they get them in the sequel?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76898: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:15:20 AM

Those are some weird groupings. I mean they basically put Cap's side-kick (plus a random characters) to Tony and Tony's main side-kicks (plus a random character) to Cap. Only Hawkeye is correctly paired up with Cap. And then they go and stick Spider-man and Pepper to doctor Strange and Star Lord, and do one cover on which the characters don't really know each other at all, at least not on a friendship level.

Whoever did those doesn't know much about those movies, right?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76899: Nov 27th 2017 at 6:16:22 AM

[up][up]The article is explicitly about the anniversary of the studio.

And then they go and stick Spider-man and Pepper to doctor Strange and Star Lord

Actually according to the trailer Spider-Man is fighting Thanos on an alien world alongside Doctor Strange and Star-Lord. But either way I think you're putting a bit too much thought into this.

edited 27th Nov '17 6:17:21 AM by comicwriter


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