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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76801: Nov 25th 2017 at 10:56:26 AM

Honestly, beyond the next two Avengers movies, there is no guarantee the superhero genre is going to remain as prominent as it is right now. If a couple of Marvel movies disappoint - nb: I sure as hell hope Black Panther does not - while we get one Star Wars triumph after another, Disney might decide not to greenlit risky projects anymore, and the rhythm of release might be lowered back to mid-00's level - especially if they also remain on their excellent Animation quality streak, and if they keep getting hits anytime they do live versions of their classics, they won't need to do Captain Whatever in preparation for Avengers 6.

And if somehow the Vapor Ware Avatar sequels are successful (don't put that beyond James Cameron's abiliies, the guy has already topped the world box office twice without any franchise to back him), the years 2020 might be those of Space Operas.

(I still cling to the hope of someday seeing a Mass Effect movie done by someone competent, and that would be a requirement)

Which would funnily make Green Lantern DC's most valuable franchise, and GOTG Marvel's - funnily for different reasons.

edited 25th Nov '17 10:58:50 AM by Julep

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76802: Nov 25th 2017 at 11:48:52 AM

I doubt it. If Marvels next few films disappoint they might, but marvel is generally much smarter about reading the market than the competition.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76803: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:05:20 PM

Marvel doesn't really "read" the market. They have a skeleton for their movies, both in style and story, to which they faithfully stick, which allows them to produce reliably entertaining pieces. They have a formula that works wonders at the moment. If people lose their interest in that formula, they would need to really shake the status quo which they really have not done since Iron Man aired.

If the next Avengers are on par with Age of Ultron when it comes to quality, I would not expect the "phase 4" to be as ambitious as the previous three. It is going to be a box-office hit, but if it disappoints, people might decide they are happy with what they enjoyed but want to move on from now on.

A Black Panther triumph might be more important than an Avengers one in the long run, so that Marvel tries to move away from the formula before it expires. Unless of course BP is just yet another paintjob of Iron Man which woukd be awfully disappointing.

edited 25th Nov '17 12:06:11 PM by Julep

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76804: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:26:39 PM

It's true that superhero films borrow bits and pieces from other genres all the time but I don't think you can really say that superhero isn't a genre. It's one of those "you know it when you see it" things. Most of the supposed alternate genre stuff in the Marvel movies doesn't make them feel all that different most of the time. The heist stuff in Ant-Man for example, was really just window dressing.

Only Winter Soldier from my recollection really felt different in really embracing the political thriller angle.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76805: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:43:36 PM

It is true that Marvel has a particular formula but that's part of what I'm saying. At worst what will happen will be a MCU crash, but the MCU isn't the only fish in the pond (as I mentioned Fox in particular seems gearing up to take the R-Rated superhero business) and even the MCU itself is trying to diversify its franchises a bit.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76806: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:49:23 PM

I find it surprising that Fox managed to carve that niche for themselves so convincingly. I always get the impression the X-men films are a bit of a zombie franchise at this point, or getting to that level.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76807: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:51:22 PM

The main X-Men films are getting to zombie status. After Apocalypse pissed away the good reception Days of Future Past got, plus Bryan Singer's own controversies as a sex offender, the main X-Men films are in a weird spot right now. The other ones like Deadpool, Logan, and potentially New Mutants are carving out massive niches for them to experiment with.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#76808: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:55:50 PM

[up][up]Deadpool pulled their bacon out of the fire with its profit ratio right before X-Men: Apocalypse was a collective 'meh'. Logan seems to have given them the confidence to move into this direction.

[up]Basically this.

edited 25th Nov '17 12:56:18 PM by ViperMagnum357

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76809: Nov 25th 2017 at 12:57:31 PM

The original X-Men proved it could be done, managing to preserve a certain amount of the comics' spirit while still attracting mainstream audiences. In a way, branching into R-rated movies is just their way of aging with their audience, deliberately or not.

edited 25th Nov '17 12:58:54 PM by Unsung

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76810: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:02:32 PM

So far, Marvel has really tried audacious things on TV, not in theaters. Aside from the aforementioned Winter Soldier, there is no real change in either tone, theme or style to get the impression that you are watching something entirely different from what came before.

You can compare that to the "classical-dark" Daredevil sharing a universe with "noir-psychological-feminist" Jessica Jones and "urban-social" Luke Cage (even Iron Fist and Punisher also have pretty different vibes).

You can also argue that there is more variety within the different seasons of Agents of SHIELD than there are among all MCU movies.

That's why Black Panther matters (no pun intended) in that it will show whether Marvel truly tries doing something original or if it does Iron Man yet another time as an origin story with different faces.

It is one of the laws of nature: you need diversity to deal with disturbances of your ecosystem. If all your movies have identical DNA, you can't expect them to remain successful if people tire of the formula they have been using so far.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76811: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:07:10 PM

In essence Fox bumbled its way into success.

"Our rights to the X-Men are fading away we need to get on that, so let's make a movie.. Ok, so X3 was a failure, that boat is sinking. Who is most popular with the X-Men? Wolverine, of course, so let's make a movie solely about him whilst the X franchise is on hold. Ok so that didn't work out too well but people seemed to like Deadpool, let's make a movie about him. In hindsight, a Deadpool movie would be too risky, shelve it. Oh the test footage leaked and people loved it? Fine, let's go ahead with it, but let's slash the budget by 25% just to be dicks about it and generally treat the movie as a sideline. Oh, it was the most successful r-rated movie in history? Well thinking back, people always asked about Logan R-Rated and It's Hugh Jackman's last ride so let's give 'em what they want. It was an even more monstrous success? We may be getting the hang of this..."

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76812: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:32:16 PM

A lot of Deadpool's success can be attributed to Ryan Reynold's personal passion for the project. If not for him it's even less likely the movie would've been made.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76813: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:38:05 PM

And even if it was, so much of that movie is Ryan Reynolds, same as how he *made* the first ten minutes of Origins. Like RDJ, a lot of that is improv, right?

edited 25th Nov '17 1:38:44 PM by Unsung

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76814: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:38:41 PM

Giving authors freedom is a good way to introduce variety in your universe, even though it's riskier.

For Fox it has worked so far. For DC...it worked with Patty Jenkins, not with Zack Snyder. Given their current success, Marvel should really try more outlandish "author projects", because one fumble is unlikely to ruin everything, and a success might give them more opportunities to adapt if audiences change their mood. Again, maybe Black Panther will be a movie that feels truly different and ensure Marvel's future no matter what happens - if they get lambasted as "Social Justice Warriors", well, they have a large (Spider)(Gwen)pool of heroes or heroines to pick from if they want to try truly disconnected movies that go in different directions and embrace their new epithet.

edited 25th Nov '17 1:40:10 PM by Julep

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76815: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:45:06 PM

I don't think that Black Panther is especially likely to come off as an Iron Man rip-off, mostly because we're dealing with a pre-established hero who has at least partially already gone through his origin - and is a king, no less - and has a pretty different personality from Tony as well. I don't think he's an inexperience newcomer the way Scott Lang and Stephen Strange were.

Oh God! Natural light!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76816: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:46:53 PM

It'll probably be more akin to Thor than Iron Man if it's derivative at all.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76817: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:49:30 PM

Marvel does seem to be giving its directors more liberty, but at a (perhaps exceedingly) careful pace. James Gunn pretty much gets free realm with the GOTG movies, and Taika Waititi got to do whatever the Hell he wanted in Thor: Ragnarok. The Russo brothers are likewise fairly hands-off in their films. Time will tell if they'll escalate this with their other franchises.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#76818: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:50:35 PM

What exactly is the Iron Man formula that 90% of Marvel movies apparently follow?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76819: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:52:03 PM

Rich douchebag gets superpowers and learns to be more humble and less douchebag-y while fighting his evil doppelganger.

To be honest the only time Marvel has wholly copied that was in Doctor Strange. Ant Man had some variance to it at least.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#76820: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:54:06 PM

Scott not being rich is an entire plot point

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76821: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:57:25 PM

I wouldn't call it the "Iron Man" formula exactly (especially because Iron Man 1 is still one of their most solid and well-executed movies), but most of the Marvel films feel pretty similar in their tone, style and motifs with only a few exceptions like the Russo-helmed films. The Got G films feel a little bit more stylistically distinct but they still feel pretty safely "Marvel" in terms of their content and themes.

Of note is the story structure of an immature, arrogant white man learning about personal responsibility. IM 1, Thor, the first Got G, and I believe Doctor Strange all have that. Even Ant-Man sorta does except it's with the MC's mentor (Hank Pym).

edited 25th Nov '17 1:59:15 PM by Draghinazzo

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76822: Nov 25th 2017 at 1:58:45 PM

"Arrogant, well-off dude goes through some kind of humbling incident, learns humility, and finds salvation and new purpose in superheroics."

Besides Iron Man itself, Thor and Doctor Strange is the only ones that I'd say really follow that formula, being High-Fantasy Blood Knight Tony Stark and Magical Surgeon Tony Stark.

Ant-Man has some similar tropes but there's some key differences. We start off in his rut rather than seeing his fall from grace, and his character development is more of an inversion, going from a self-pitying loser to a rightfully-confident hero. If anything it's closer to Captain America, though Steve didn't have much room for moral growth to begin with.

edited 25th Nov '17 2:02:43 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#76823: Nov 25th 2017 at 2:00:18 PM

Peter's arc was less about personal responsibility and more about being emotionally available after his mom's death

Although he also decides to be personally responsible for the Orb but that's more about him not being 100% asshole

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76824: Nov 25th 2017 at 2:01:34 PM

And then there's Captain America whose arc has nothing to do with any of that.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76825: Nov 25th 2017 at 2:01:54 PM

[up][up]Not 100% a dick, actually.

edited 25th Nov '17 2:02:02 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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