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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76676: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:17:17 PM

". That's all there is to it."

you know, is kinda annoying when someone else said or guess why you do said something instead of, you know....asking them why.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#76677: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:22:17 PM

I felt that Ori's points weren't exactly debunked. He was a selfish coward, that's obvious, but the show didn't go out of his way to portray his ideas as wrong. Just like it did not go out of his way to portray's the sympathetic Frank's ideas as right.

Karen didn't own him during their (short) debate. She didn't seem like the kind of person who would be against letting total nutjobs buy firearms, which is what the senator is fighting against. The guy would have been a strawman and his opinion ridiculed if he was a "no guns" guy and had asked for Karen to ditch her own weapon.

(I mean, that's the sensible thing to do in my opinion, but it would have been portrayed far more negatively in the show than it was)

I don't think the show could really do more than that without sounding utterly ridiculous when it stars a machine-gun toting ex-soldier. At least it does not glorify gun violence. And bombings aside, Lewis kills a number of guards with his gun on his way up.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76678: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:24:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] Oh, right.

Now I am wondering even more about that scene. I mean I get why the show is very sympathetic to the plight of the soldiers - even though it really could have addressed that why a government which invests that much into a single soldier can't invest the same money into education and health care - but this scene really come off as hidden propaganda.

[up] Except that Karen is forced to ditch her weapon to talk to him while he had hired guns for protection...and remember what happens next (we should move the discussion to the Punisher thread).

edited 20th Nov '17 12:27:06 PM by Swanpride

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#76679: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:24:46 PM

Well, Marvel did try to make a comic aimed at kids sponsored by a military company about how cool it is to be a mercenary, after all.
Now that's consistency. Well, the comic has been cancelled anyway, but there's nothing more amusing than a franchise built on glorifying civilians with military-grade firepower getting involved in worldwide conflicts, to be criticized over presenting pretty much the same thing in a slightly more relatable package. For that matter, one of their biggest characters right now - Deadpool - is a mercenary himself, and there has been little to no outrage regarding that aspect either. Maybe real life PMC's should start wielding katanas if they really want to attract newcomers to the fold.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76680: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:44:25 PM

Well, the comic has been cancelled anyway, but there's nothing more amusing than a franchise built on glorifying civilians with military-grade firepower getting involved in worldwide conflicts, to be criticized over presenting pretty much the same thing in a slightly more relatable package.

Not to state the obvious, but that's because many people are capable of separating reality from fiction. I like superheroes. I am also capable of realizing that taking the law into your own hands in real life is a horrible idea.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:48:06 PM by comicwriter

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76681: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:50:27 PM

". For that matter, one of their biggest characters right now - Deadpool - is a mercenary himself, and there has been little to no outrage regarding that aspect either. "

To be fair, Deadpool being a mercenary is mosly backstory, people know him for being pretty much a inmortal murder hobo...which soud hilarious when said it outloud.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#76682: Nov 20th 2017 at 1:10:44 PM

I'd say the impact would've been about as effective as the classic 80's cartoons like J.I. Joe - I don't think the military saw that big of a jump in enlistment on account of kids' shows and action figure lines... compared to, say, Cruise and Kilmer's abs. Personally, I'm simply more partial to the overall idea of empowerment in any field through training and technology, rather than the media-fetishized reliance on some inherent talent that is then used to separate people into haves and have-nots.

Again, though, I notice how the argument of separating fantasy from reality never seems to be invoked for the various anvilicious allegorical shows like Star Trek, where the morals usually benefit from outright breaks in the laws of physics. Curiously, it's only when the themes might not be to one's liking that even their fictional depiction is frowned upon. Cookies, anyone?

edited 20th Nov '17 1:18:04 PM by indiana404

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76683: Nov 20th 2017 at 1:49:07 PM

That's because Star Trek, from its inception, has always been a vehicle for discussion social issues. Unless you're specifically into the more recent JJ Abrams-helmed reboots, Star Trek is really not a franchise to get into if you don't like ethnical or moral discussions about current events.

Superheroes run a broader spectrum. Some try to discuss politics and issues (especially when it's something like X-Men) but a fair number are just action stories meant to be taken at face value. Hence why the literal promotion of military contractors rubbed many the wrong way. It's really not that hard.

edited 20th Nov '17 1:50:01 PM by comicwriter

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#76684: Nov 20th 2017 at 2:14:26 PM

Like I've said, we live in an age of drone strikes and tower-toppling terrorists. How do you decide what's meant to be allegorical? The primary heroes of the MCU are a defense contractor with global monopoly ambitions, a steroid-enhanced soldier, an army nuclear scientist, and a foreign superpower warlord - kinda hard not to see them as representing military might in some fashion or another.

Conversely, considering they're supposed to be heroes in spite of considerable personality flaws, pathological aversion to oversight, and violent infighting with occasionally massive collateral damage, the same attitude may be invoked in the depiction of PMC's as well - people who may not have a pristine reputation or a politically wholesome field of of operation, but are generally still just trying to fight the same fights as regular troops and defend their country in general and families in particular. The French Foreign Legion is one example still free from the usual villain-by-default depiction in modern film and television. Maybe it's the hats.

edited 20th Nov '17 2:29:02 PM by indiana404

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76685: Nov 20th 2017 at 2:47:04 PM

Like I've said, we live in an age of drone strikes and tower-toppling terrorists. How do you decide what's meant to be allegorical?

We've pretty much always lived in a world where superherodom could intentionally or not be seen as allegorical to some real life situation. It's down to the person. But like I said it's usually fairly clear to delineate what is meant to be allegory from what is just supposed to be a story about people in costumes punching bad guys. And in this case making an actual commercial for a military contractor (especially one involved in prior scandals) was not something many people wanted to see in their superhero comics, because it crossed the line from plausibly deniable parallel to outright shilling. It's pretty easy to see why people didn't like that.

Of course, every story has the potential to have someone read too much into it, of course I guess that's why places like Tumblr exist.

edited 20th Nov '17 2:49:03 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76686: Nov 20th 2017 at 3:02:29 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p38Lbm84JhI

I'm a Marvel, I'm DC is back...I really missed those vids.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76688: Nov 20th 2017 at 3:37:55 PM

To be clear, he's referring to the long process of putting on the makeup and prosthetics for Malekith.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76689: Nov 20th 2017 at 3:42:00 PM

Everything about the development of The Dark World seems to have been a complete mess.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76690: Nov 20th 2017 at 3:44:37 PM

[up] I think the last minute reshoots where the only thing which just rescued the movie. Just.

But my Malekith post isn't due for a month yet.

edited 20th Nov '17 3:45:42 PM by Swanpride

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76691: Nov 20th 2017 at 4:28:03 PM

The reshots either made the movie even worse or saved it depending on who you ask

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76692: Nov 20th 2017 at 6:13:21 PM

Oh uh, I wanted to add this yesterday but apparently filming for Ant-Man and the Wasp wrapped.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76693: Nov 20th 2017 at 6:29:20 PM

Now they gotta haul ass over to the Avengers 4 set.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76694: Nov 20th 2017 at 6:31:18 PM

They are gonna be worn out by the end of this.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Whowho Since: May, 2012
#76695: Nov 20th 2017 at 6:45:37 PM

A steady line of work at least.

I'm surprised we've not had a phase four line up announcement yet.

So far spider man 2, (the third spiderman 2) is the only thing with a release date and it hasn't even a title.

I wonder if they're going to stick to three films a year? Assuming everyone due a sequel gets it, and there's no fourth entries to the sub franchises, that's Spider-man, Ant-Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange and Guardians of the galaxy.

If we're reverting back to three year long phases and sticking to three films a year, that leaves space for two new properties to be introduced.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76696: Nov 20th 2017 at 7:05:17 PM

They're keeping very mum in general on what they plan to do post-Thanos.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#76697: Nov 20th 2017 at 7:09:08 PM

Probably don't want to spoil who is left standing.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76699: Nov 20th 2017 at 9:37:21 PM

Finally watched Doctor Strange at a friend's place. Boy was it underwhelming. The worst part about it was easily the frustratingly simplistic writing. The Ancient One's teaching methods and idea of "mysticism" were transparently shallow. Strange's character arc if you can call it that was also ridiculously predictable yet unconvincing as hell, and at times it seems like he goes against his own growth with his insistence on believing in science while opening his mind to the mystical. I didn't hate it but barely cracked a smile at most of the humor, especially since its best joke (the one about the wifi) was already spoiled in the trailers.. And the manner in which he learns his magic happens way too fast. I felt nothing at the Ancient One's death because the movie didn't do a sufficient job of making me give a crap about anyone in the film aside from poor Christine Palmer, whose continued UST with Strange was hard to buy. Should've just left it at old flame who still cared but just as a friend.

On the whole this movie suffers from a rather extreme level of Show, Don't Tell, whether it's the Ancient One's use of the Dark Dimension, Strange's history with Palmer, Strange's so-called potential, Mordo's past, any exposition about the mystical world in general, and everything about Kaecilius. And in general most of the characters are just... boring. Mordo was the closest thing to interesting, and were this a better film he'd have been the main character while Strange was relegated to Supporting Protagonist until the very last part, but even Mordo's arc felt very half-baked due to the above problems with Show, Don't Tell.

The closest I felt with this movie was Thor The Dark World, and while I wouldn't say it's quite that bad on the whole and TDW is still my overall least favorite, in some aspects this movie is even worse. TDW had better worldbuilding, Loki was entertaining, and at that point Thor was still barely on the right side of likeable. The supposed trippy visuals of Doctor Strange also didn't really impress me all that much either. They were fine I guess, a good use of CGI but I never felt they justified the description of "trippy".

As for the film's positives, most of them revolve around the visuals. The set design and costuming were pretty nice, the combat choreography was solid and had the right amount of impact, a lot better than TDW's laughable fight scenes. Despite her lack of screentime I did like Palmer, much better than Jane. And while I wasn't wowed by the setpieces they weren't bad either. The film was a lot stronger in the second half since I didn't have to sit through as many scads of terrible writing and could rely on sheer spectacle.

But on the whole it's still a frustratingly mediocre film that feels like it was made as an obligation to fill in MCU lore gaps and potentially kick off a new franchise rather than something with a solid vision of its own. Hell, even the obligatory Stan Lee cameo felt underwhelming and obligatory. People call Ant-Man derivative, but I felt that film had enough charm and interesting backstory to justify itself. This one has just barely enough flash to be on the right side of watchable, but it's easily one of the most expendable films in the entire MCU. You would save a lot of time just reading a synopsis and watching all the big scenes on Youtube.

And in hindsight Strange's very brief cameo in Thor Ragnarok was a far better showing than the entire film dedicated to making us care about him.

edited 20th Nov '17 10:10:51 PM by AlleyOop

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76700: Nov 20th 2017 at 9:45:42 PM

Damn, you share a lot of my thoughts and point out shit I didn't even consider in the first place. Doctor Strange is a movie that I honestly could not understand the hype for and that I feel is probably one of the single weakest movies in the MCU. In hindsight, the trippy visuals are only really good in one scene, with Strange going through the weird vision thing after he gets served tea.

And also, one little complaint/nitpick: They use a goddamned Pink Floyd song and they don't use it during a damn psychedelic scene? When Strange's car crashes they play Interstellar Overdrive, one of the trippiest songs Pink Floyd made (and trust me a lot of their stuff is trippy), but they didn't think to maybe score it with the vision shit Strange goes through? Or just any Pink Floyd song, maybe? Use Echoes or Careful with That Axe Eugene or maybe Let There Be More Light or some shit. Yes yes, this is a minor thing to get pissy about, but with how Guardians of the Galaxy, Iron Man, Iron Man 2, and Thor: Ragnarok used popular music to their advantage, why not use psychedelic music for Doctor Strange? It'd fit.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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