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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76626: Nov 18th 2017 at 10:33:55 PM

They wanted a gimmick obviously, but as to why Frankenstein's monster, your guess is as good as mine. Like making him black was by far the worst of the three because of how stupidly insensitive it is but at least you could argue they could use it to try and say something.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76628: Nov 18th 2017 at 10:46:55 PM

[up][up]I was being a pedant actually.

Though that particular pet peeve aside, turning him into Frankenstein's monster is pretty apropos if gimmicky.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#76629: Nov 19th 2017 at 12:58:18 AM

It was actually pretty fun. They called him Franken-Castle, and he worked as the protector for the Legion of Monsters, led by Morbius (yes, the Living Vampire guy).

edited 19th Nov '17 1:00:05 AM by Nightwire

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76630: Nov 19th 2017 at 11:43:17 AM

So uh...is that Defenders liveblogging still going on?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#76631: Nov 19th 2017 at 12:11:03 PM

So not to stereotype the poor guy based on his height, but if that's true, could Peter Dinklage be playing a dwarven blacksmith who makes Thor's axe for him? Because the set link mentions Nidavellir, the realm of the dwarves.

Well, wouldn't be the first time Dinklage played a fantasy dwarf...

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#76632: Nov 19th 2017 at 12:36:54 PM

My hope is Pip the Troll and I think I remember seeing a picture of Dinklage with the hair color and style that would suggest that's who he's playing.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#76633: Nov 19th 2017 at 1:11:02 PM

Some quick poking around showed that another theory regarding Dinklage's character is that he's Eitri, who had something of a role in the original Infinity Gauntlet story IIRC.

I kinda prefer that over Pip.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#76634: Nov 19th 2017 at 1:15:59 PM

Hmm. Could be. I wonder about his interest/willingness to play a fantasy dwarf though (I mean literally a dwarf, rather than a person with dwarfism). Pip seems like a good choice to me because he's kind of Tyrion IN SPACE to begin with and has connections to Thanos and Adam Warlock.

And I was thinking they could deconstruct Pip's seriously iffy comics backstory by having him sarcastically tell Quill that he was cursed into his current appearance and when Quill believed him, respond something like, "No you idiot, I was born this way. Have you never seen someone with dwarfism before?!"

Also, while again kind of getting into stereotype, I like the Lord of the Rings shout-outs you could get with Pip's use of the space (?) gem.

edited 19th Nov '17 1:17:04 PM by Hodor2

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#76635: Nov 19th 2017 at 1:30:17 PM

I wonder about his interest/willingness to play a fantasy dwarf though

He's spoken about it in several interviews, and said while he played a fantasy dwarf in Prince Caspian, he specifically demanded on avoiding the fantasy look of 'long beard, pointy shoes, pointy hat' etc. He also really doesn't want more jokes like Lord of the Rings tossing Gimli around, since "dwarf tossing" assault happens too often in real life and isn't taken as seriously as it should be.

Dinklage: I try not to read too much into it, but theres a bit of a bias, where you're thought of as a mystical creature, which is a bit absurd. I have a great sense of humor — and a dark sense of humor — about everything, but it is a bit narrow-minded sometimes, where if they have a dwarf character, the shoes have to curl up at the end, he has this inherent wisdom, he isn't sexual, all of that. You look at something like Snow White, and each of the dwarves is just one thing — this one sneezes, this one is angry, this one is tired. And that's sometimes still true for modern-day stories. But it’s not just for dwarves, that could be the case for anybody, for women, for people of color. Right now it's Middle Eastern people who are all playing terrorists. It's short-sighted. But life is too short — no pun intended — to be interested in roles that haven't got any meat to them.

It's basic advice for stereotypes in writing: Avoid them as much as you can, but if one is inevitable, give the actor something more to do with the character besides "I'm just a terrorist/criminal/fantasy dwarf/martial arts master/tribal native/slave, etc."

edited 19th Nov '17 1:31:27 PM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76636: Nov 19th 2017 at 2:52:39 PM

He will have read the script and made his decision based on it. It is entirely possible that the movie never even addresses his size and just treats him as some sort of cosmic being, not more exciting than one which looks like a tree or a raccoon. This is not meant as an insult, but I think in an universe in which all kind of alien species running around, someone who just happens to be small isn't even something special, it's certainly not more unusual than someone who is particularly big. And in a setting in which everyone is special, well, that makes the so called normal people look like just another variation of weird.

Does this make any sense?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#76637: Nov 19th 2017 at 2:59:46 PM

Yeah. It does. One thing I was going to add RE Pip or whoever he is, that I think you're getting at, is that it's not that odd that there would be "people from a species with pointed ears" that have dwarfism, since there are humans with dwarfism. Just like how for instance, there are Kree and Asgardians of various human skintones and ethnicities (okay, that is a bit weird but it could be a panspermia kind of thing).

Edit- But yeah, conversely, which I think is more your point, his height could just not be mentioned and the implication could be that that's just the normal height for whatever race/species he's from. So, if Pip, he'd be a (sigh) Laxidazian

edited 19th Nov '17 3:03:40 PM by Hodor2

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76638: Nov 19th 2017 at 3:09:43 PM

[up] My idea was more that it isn't really established if his height is normal for his species or not. Because it is not important.

Or Marvel really goes crazy and gives him a backstory that he had to leave his planet because he grow too big due to a genetic mutation. See, the other people of his kind, they only reach his knees.

edited 19th Nov '17 3:11:21 PM by Swanpride

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#76639: Nov 19th 2017 at 3:57:08 PM

Or, who knows, maybe Tony just throws a lavish party, and the guests include Peter Dinklage As Himself.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76640: Nov 19th 2017 at 5:38:22 PM

So just got finished with The Punisher. It's pretty good. Not the best MCU TV production, personally I'd put it below Daredevil Season 1, Luke Cage, and Jessica Jones, but it's a damn good show with some actually decent pacing. I'm surprised it hasn't been getting as much buzz, the hype seemed to dwindle in the past month or so.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Eldritcho Since: Nov, 2016
#76641: Nov 19th 2017 at 7:04:20 PM

[up]

Probably because it got pushed back due to the Vegas shooting. Its probably a safe bet to say that some people who would have been willing to give it a shot otherwise are a bit more apprehensive towards it right now, especially since we've had like, what... 3? 4 mass-shootings since?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76642: Nov 19th 2017 at 7:38:59 PM

I just finished episode 3.

I like that we got to see that war story Schoonover told in the courtroom, complete with him losing an arm.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76643: Nov 19th 2017 at 10:18:36 PM

Thinking it over some more about the Punisher:

Ya know ironically some of the most interesting stuff that happens is the stuff where Frank isn't the focus. Lewis's entire arc of his PTSD and lingering resentment for his service is a really well done arc but it's disconnected from Frank until Lewis starts targeting Karen and draws Frank into things. A bit annoying I guess but it's done well enough that I can't complain too much.

As for our two main villains, William Rawlins is probably the most outright boring villain from the Netflix shows. He's not bad, mind, but he's just so uninteresting. Maybe just slightly above Nobu but hell at least Diamondback offered something. Billy Russo, on the other hand, is pretty damn good. He's an outright chilling sociopath and he gives me the goddamn creeps. He can bounce from charming to murderous easily. Now I figure some people who are hardcore comic fans might not wholly approve of this version of Jigsaw because he's not fully like the comic character (hell, a significant part of the show is that he's an old friend of Frank's when the comic version was just another of Frank's victims), but I genuinely like this interpretation a lot. He's not the best Netflix villain but god damn was he fun.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76644: Nov 19th 2017 at 10:47:45 PM

I didn't think much of Rawlins at first, but the degree to which he goes completely batshit crazy by the end was a nice touch. Just the contrast between how boring he seemed versus how thoroughly deranged he actually was— that made it worth it, especially given that he's both obviously the fakeout villain and yet still somehow the Bigger Bad compared to Billy Russo. Even then, I think it's Russo's sheer calculated detachment that made both characters work for me. It's not a tour de force performance like Wilson Fisk, Cottonmouth, or hell, Frank himself in the first arc of Daredevil Season 2, but with Russo, they still managed to put a new spin on a villain type we've seen before. A few times before, in fact: the Meachums, Diamondback, Nuke in a way, Davos soon...

edited 20th Nov '17 8:31:42 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76645: Nov 19th 2017 at 11:34:23 PM

I feel like Russo is probably only beaten by Harold Meachum in the Big Bad Friend division, and that's mostly because Harold is just slightly more engaging with how he degrades through the show and with how petty he acts. It's obvious from the moment Russo first shows up that he's evil (I mean just look as his goddamn hair, that's a haircut Ward Meachum would be jealous of) but it's interesting seeing how evil he really is. It's just a fucking job to him for the most part, but one he carries out ruthlessly.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76646: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:07:44 AM

It's that warped professionalism about Russo that I found interesting— like, when he's hanging out with Frank's family or visiting Curtis in the meeting hall he also pays rent on, or when he tries to get Frank to leave Cerberus or turns Wilson away at Anvil, I don't think those were selfish, empty gestures, or even deliberately manipulative. Russo tries to do right by his friends— right up until they threaten his mission, the mission which at that point had become Anvil and his own personal wealth and success.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:47:42 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76647: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:15:11 AM

He does feel a bit genuine in some of that, yeah. Though I think probably the most terrifying scene with him was when he visits his mom at the hospital. Every second of it made my skin crawl. Russo just kinda grows on you with how damn creepy he slowly turns out to be.

What I'm kind of surprised by are the reviews of The Punisher seem to be really mixed right now. It's at a 64% on Rotten Tomatoes and I'm just kinda surprised by that. The show is genuinely good. I'm already seeing some people blaming it on "liberal reviewers" or whatever, which doesn't really make sense, to be honest?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76648: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:41:40 AM

Can't please everyone, right? This is essentially Frank Castle in a Jason Bourne movie. That's just not what a lot of Punisher fans are going to want, while the character of a guy who murders criminals without even any pretense of trying to bring them in for a trial was never going to sit well with certain people.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:46:55 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76649: Nov 20th 2017 at 12:44:25 AM

The latter didn't really seem as big of a deal to me given the criminals this time were people who committed war crimes that are trying to cover it up. I mean I guess comic fans would critique it because the show is vastly different from anything one would expect a Punisher series to do, but it still worked for me and lots of other people.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#76650: Nov 20th 2017 at 2:16:59 AM

Not so much Jason Bourne, as Max Payne. Going after the now-overdone PMC's instead of the vast array of semi-realistic mobsters he's best known for fighting may have been a bit too left-field. Daredevil got his evil ninjas, why can't Frank fight the Yakuza or at least the Mafiya?

The personal angle was also a misstep in my opinion, but an understandable one. Burton's Batman used it for the same reason - it's a classical angle to use for a relatively unfamiliar character. It's kinda like how the Tom Jane film had his family killed in an explicit revenge hit rather than a chaotic crossfire. And of course, the ending where Frank punishes Russo with pain rather than killing him speaks of a different, more emotional, concept of the character, rather than the impersonal self-propelled meat-grinder he usually channels.

Essentially, the main error in direction here - as is prevalent in the entire MCU - is to treat superheroics (and gun-totting vigilantism) as some sort of personal development struggle, rather than something that may be necessary from a public standpoint. The Punisher's philosophy in the Tom Jane film - that sometimes the law is inadequate, and measures outside the law must be taken to bring about justice - is too big a bite to swallow in the best of times, let alone nowadays when even conventional superheroes are questioned as to whether they're more trouble than they're worth. After all, if, as Frank's final words frame it, there is no war to fight... shouldn't superheroes themselves be wearing badges, not masks?


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