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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76401: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:34:35 AM

On the other hand, one can said(Am I will said) the writing is VERY manipulative when it come to tony stark mistakes:

First is asshole behivor in Iron man 2, sure he is dying but he dosent tell ANYONE about it and since he get better thanks to deus ex machina he get away with it, them is his battle against hulk in AOU which the movie totally move under the roof and of course the whole issue with sokovia...

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76402: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:37:31 AM

One of the main problems with Danny is that his main Freudian Excuse for his flaws (I.e the fact he's a Tyke-Bomb) is skimmed over in his actual show as we never actually see his childhood in K'un-Lun, despite the fact that could have made him a lot more sympathetic.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76403: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:48:54 AM

The show where the main character's past informs his present (as well as setting up a lot of background for the war between the Hand and the Chaste) much, much more than any of the other Defenders, is of course the show which hardly gets any flashbacks at all. And RZA's episode shows you could've still managed to drop in some flashbacks even if you didn't want to spring for monastery sets.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#76404: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:51:30 AM

How expensive could monastery sets be, though? Monks are supposed to live frugal, spartan lives, so a room in a monastery would need to be little more than four walls and maybe a table.

edited 7th Nov '17 9:05:38 AM by RavenWilder

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76405: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:56:19 AM

...That's what I said, but along with the Dragon Hug, it's something that only exists in our imaginations.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76406: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:58:30 AM

The lack of flashbacks also results in a staggering failure to do adequate worldbuilding around K'un Lun. There are so many unanswered questions around this concept, and not in a good intrigue-building way but in a basic sense that interferes with the plot.

Like, the city only intersects the world every fifteen years. Okay, why? How? What does that even mean? Because I took it to mean that K'un Lun literally fades out of existence and only returns every fifteen years.

"The Iron Fist guards the pass." Why does he need to do that if entry is only possible every fifteen years? And why just the one guy?

"Because he punched a dragon." What? Why is there suddenly a dragon? What does the dragon have to do with anything?!

Punching the dragon gives the Iron Fist the power to destroy their most bitter enemies, The Hand, with whom they are perpetually at war for however many days every fifteen years that they are on Earth. He does this by guarding the pass that spends 98% of its time sealed off forever.

This lore is so stupid it hurts. And then Danny goes back to the pass in the end and finds it empty but for some dead monks and takes this to mean that K'un Lun has been destroyed, but I don't know because isn't fading out of existence something it's supposed to do on its own?

edited 7th Nov '17 8:59:43 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76408: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:01:31 AM

Like, the city only intersects the world every fifteen years. Okay, why? How? What does that even mean? Because I took it to mean that K'un Lun literally fades out of existence and only returns every fifteen years.

I get your overall point, but Danny says it's in another dimension entirely. So every fifteen years there's a bridge between it and the rest of the world that opens, and when that's done it closes. It's not complicated.

You're right about everything else though.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76409: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:04:57 AM

If the deal had gone through, we might just have gotten Deadpool saving the world by kicking Captain America in the balls. It is a sad day for superhero media that this moment is still unlikely to ever come to film.

edited 7th Nov '17 9:05:06 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76410: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:23:16 AM

I love one of the suggestions there: a PG-13 Spider-Man and Deadpool team-up movie where Deadpool is completely aware he's in a PG-13 movie, but he rolls with it because he wants to hang with Spidey and Peter's still a minor. There's only one "fuck" allowed per PG-13 film, and Deadpool is saving it for a good moment, but someone else in the movie steals it, which pisses Wade off.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#76411: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:42:41 AM

As soon as I heard it I was thinking it probably won't go through. Mergers that large have to go to the supreme court to ensure it doesn't violate antitrust laws, especially if they are in the exact same business field. Disney has already grown enormous from the acquisition of Marvel and Lucasfilm, which were mostly for their licensing stable rather than their resources. Completely absorbing another studio would make them a MegaCorp on the level of an 80's dystopia film.

Funny enough, I was actually thinking how this would give them the rights to A New Hope before I even thought about X-Men.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76412: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:44:59 AM

I'd love a Deadpool / Spider-Man film, but only after this version of Spidey has been given a little more time to grow up. The jokes between them work best when Spider-Man is a little more experienced and world-weary.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76413: Nov 7th 2017 at 9:53:19 AM

They have more flexibility on account of the fact that they're predominately antagonistic characters, so when they're behaving like assholes, it's a feature, not a bug. In general, villains have an easier time being likable than heroes do because heroes are expected to generally make if not good than at least decent choices and do generally decent things. The hero might make mistakes here or there, and that's what gives them their interesting flaws, but most of their decisions are supposed to seem like right decisions because they represent the moral rightness of the story.

Villains don't need to do that. A villain can kick a puppy in the face while singing a jaunty showtune and it will do nothing to damage his likability because villains are supposed to be assholes so it doesn't undermine his role in the story to do so. The villain's role in the story is to be wrong. He can condone slavery, give speeches about how everyone but him is stupid, order a mass genocide, and it won't harm his likability one bit because we all understand that he's meant to be wrong. He's a bad guy doing bad guy things and we can rest easy in the knowledge that he will get his comeuppance in the end. This is what makes it so infuriating when a hero transgresses "flawed" and starts doing bad guy things: because whether or not he'll get his comeuppance is determined entirely by how much the writer realizes that he's doing wrong here. He's ultimately supposed to be right, and that colors his actions.

Yeah. I think this is the crux of Rooting for the Empire. We expect the heroes to be right, and the plot treats them as right, so when they do something definitively wrong, don't learn from it, and the plot doesn't call them out or punish them for it, it's very, very easy to turn on them. In a way, it's kinda unfair: the villain can do what he wants, even being sympathetic, but the hero has to be so many things: interesting, cool, someone we can relate to, etc, and when they aren't these things, we turn on them pretty easily.

Danny still sucks mind you. I just felt like getting that off my chest.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76414: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:11:21 AM

[up]Is one of the perk of fiction: sometimes morality play but by any virture but how much they can charm the audience, this is why so many villian can get away with shit while heroes dont.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76415: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:15:57 AM

@Tobias You actually don't get what I was saying. I am not talking about the relationship to parental figures, I am talking about social expectations. Parents play a role in this, but not the only role.

Take Danny. One of his main sticks is that he NEVER behaves how society expects him to behave (which, btw, might be part of the reason why some people reject him that hard). Sometimes this is really charming - for example when he randomly puts together an origami for the secretary while talking to her. Sometimes it is really annoying, for example when he randomly crashes a meeting. (On a side note, I see no difference whatsoever between the way Danny is in the beginning too forward towards Colleen and Tony's idea of "flirting" - honestly, due to recent event the "joke" that Nataly is a sexual harassment case waiting to happen has changed from "this isn't really that funny" to "this is a REALLY uncomfortable joke". I am ready to forgive Danny his behaviour because he is established as socially awkward and because he honestly doesn't mean anything bad or expects anything in exchange when he buys her dojo. I am ready to forgive Tony because while the way he first sleeps with women and then looses all respect for them because they fell for him (minus Pepper, but that is because she was really hard to get) is really off-putting, it is also an expression of the deep self-hatred Tony feels. I still see it as a double standard to act as if the same behaviour is an automatic deal breaker in another character).

Anyway, I was talking about social expectations vs self-determination. And about Danny. Danny spends the whole first season trying to figure out his place in live, and yes, that is kind of a problem, because what Tony does within the first act of his movie takes ages for Danny and is STILL a work in progress. He should have found his centre around episode 10, and they barely get him to a point that he is ready to confront his irresponsible actions, just so that he can discover that his decisions had dire consequences.

As a character I actually think that he is more interesting than Matt and Luke. Sorry, but Matt is going on my last nerve with his constant whining and "heroic suffering" (I also think that his martyr complex is incredible egoistic). If I didn't like the child version of Matt so much, I would outright hate the adult version of him. And there isn't really much interesting about him, because he is basically going in circles with his so called arc. And Luke doesn't really have much of an arc aside from realizing that he can't just step aside instead of using his powers. Which he realizes by episode 3 and from this point onward the show has nothing to say anymore about Luke or his relationship to Harlem (aside from changing the reaction of the public to him to whatever just happens to suit the plot). He is interesting in tandem with Jessica or even Danny, but on its own or with Claire he is a snooze of a character. They better put either of them - or both - into his next season.

Honestly, when it comes to good characters, Agents of Shield has the Netflix shows beat anyway. Jessica Jones and Trish are brilliant, but I really don't see them developing into unexpected directions. Agents of Shield on the other hand, wow, watch the first season now and you are getting all nostalgic about how the characters used to be compared to what they have become due to their experience.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76416: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:25:35 AM

Yeah I just can't agree with that assessment because I think the writing in Iron Fist and Finn Jones' acting are so mediocre that Danny ends up being a very whitebread, unconvincing character with no charisma. I addressed the comparison to the other Netflix MC's earlier; whatever problems there are with Luke, Matt or even Tony if you want a vaguely similar character from the films, their actors can bring a certain gravitas to their roles, and they're not emotional vampires that drain the audience's investment when they're on the screen. I don't think any serious screenwriter or critic would consider Danny a successful or well-realized character.

edited 7th Nov '17 10:35:34 AM by Draghinazzo

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76417: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:29:12 AM

A strong actor can prop up a weak script and a good script can carry a lifeless performance, probably the former more than the latter, but Iron Fist really doesn't have either, and @Swanpride I still think you're reading deeper intentions into the show that never occurred to anyone working on it.

edited 7th Nov '17 10:33:08 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76418: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:29:58 AM

[up][up]

Probably because so many people were rooting for Iron Fist to succeed despite all the controversy surrounding it.

edited 7th Nov '17 10:30:21 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76419: Nov 7th 2017 at 10:31:30 AM

"Agents of Shield on the other hand, wow, watch the first season now and you are getting all nostalgic about how the characters used to be compared to what they have become due to their experience."

I disagree, May take foreer to actually devolpt from the "cold badass and black widow expy" while Skye, Alias Daisy, Alias Quake, is pretty much a diferent chararter now, Coulson is pretty much the same, going with manpain crisis in the Hive Arc.

And that is, of course, getting into Ward......yeah.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76420: Nov 7th 2017 at 11:09:50 AM

[up][up][up] I don't think so...the themes are too consistent for this to be an accident. Hell, the whole park bank scene is centred around the same themes.

Not that I am denying that there are issues with the execution, there are, but thematically Iron Fist is pretty strong. I actually think that the question asked is way more interesting and creative than the law vs justice stick from Daredevil, which is really, really overdone.

[up] You do realize that you just confirmed my assessment that the characters changed, right?

edited 7th Nov '17 11:14:28 AM by Swanpride

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#76421: Nov 7th 2017 at 11:57:28 AM

-Has finished watching Homecoming-

Took me awhile to get used to setting,seeing Peter Parker in school and not working for a newspaper was weird

Also,Spiderman needs a better mentor..I nominate Deadpool

edited 7th Nov '17 11:59:54 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76422: Nov 7th 2017 at 12:25:19 PM

[up][up]Kinda but not that much, Daisy is a good example as does Fitz(I feel Jenna is a times to much....there) but Coulson is the same, May barely move on from the cavalary and Ward was the same mess after season 1 ended, with Hive being a enterely diferent chararter.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76423: Nov 7th 2017 at 12:37:21 PM

[up] May has changed a LOT. He was practically a robot, by now he has opened up about her scars and traumata (while acquiring a few new ones) and has a way more healthy approach to deal with them. He is also faster to joke and to smile and to show feelings in general.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76424: Nov 7th 2017 at 8:35:47 PM

*she

And I think May's opened up, but not in a huge way. She still hasn't fully moved on from Bahrain, not to mention Andrew. And maybe she won't, not fully. That's okay. People say 'static character' like it's a dirty word, but Tropes Are Not Bad. Sometimes a character being caught up in the treadmill of day-to-day life and being unable to change their patterns, that's relatable.The contrast between static and dynamic characters provides insight into both.

The show keeps trying to find new ways to use May, ways to change and develop her, but I find the best hours we've spent with May use that same time to try and understand her as she already is instead, trying to detail what makes her tick. There's a lot to unpack there, a lot of past that goes into making a person act the way May acts.

edited 8th Nov '17 7:10:11 AM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76425: Nov 8th 2017 at 2:40:47 AM

[up] Agreed. Though I do think that characters should change based on their experiences.

Also, Agents of Shield actually knows how to write a romance which deals with challenges in a healthy manner...Fitzsimmons might be my favourite pairing ever!

edited 8th Nov '17 3:04:04 AM by Swanpride


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