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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Hackett13 Since: May, 2017
#76351: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:06:58 PM

Good. Disney don't need to monopolize everything more than they already do.

edited 6th Nov '17 12:07:47 PM by Hackett13

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#76352: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:08:06 PM

Oh well

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76353: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:11:26 PM

The lack of Fox properties is the only part of this I'm disappointed by.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76354: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:29:33 PM

Fox is doing too well with the X-Men properties to wanna sell them. I don't understand the constant urge to get them back when Marvel would never have made Deadpool or Logan.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76355: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:40:23 PM

People want everything Marvel under one banner apparently, enough to forget those movies exist.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#76356: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:41:03 PM

Yeah X-Men is give or take. I just want Doom.

This song needs more love.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#76357: Nov 6th 2017 at 12:55:13 PM

since Agent of Shield put the inhumans, I dont really care about X men anymore, I feel both feel the same thing.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#76358: Nov 6th 2017 at 1:16:27 PM

> People want everything Marvel under one banner apparently, enough to forget those movies exist.

Well the Marvel properties are like one big family to some people,and have them separated so cross overs can never happen is really disappointing,since they do it nearly all the time in the comics apparently

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76359: Nov 6th 2017 at 1:48:16 PM

The important thing is that Disney and Fox are talking. Honestly, I only care about the Fantastic 4 rights anyway.

I wouldn't put much stock in the initial news nor in the denial. After all, Disney and Sony denied the Spider-man deal for the longest time, too. Perhaps something will come out of it, perhaps not. I can actually see Fox selling off their Movie studio, but I am not sure about the TV side of things. There are a lot of rights they own due to their TV shows, I wouldn't give up on them in their place.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#76360: Nov 6th 2017 at 1:49:14 PM

I'm not caring about this in the slightest. It's all conjecture.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#76361: Nov 6th 2017 at 2:09:25 PM

Well yeah,the deal fell through

But the fact they're interested in selling their assets is an interesting development the question is,if not Disney,who would be the next likely candidate?

edited 6th Nov '17 2:09:50 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76362: Nov 6th 2017 at 2:29:43 PM

This would have been nice a few years ago. It'd be great if Marvel could get back the rights to the Xmen and FF, but at this point, they've done pretty well without the former.

I'm not talking about all the shit with the inhumans (barring Agents of Shield): that's been a clusterfuck, but everything else about the universe has been good without them. As it is now, while the first family still has a chance, I feel like the ship has sailed for Marvel's merry mutants.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76363: Nov 6th 2017 at 3:59:12 PM

I think it would be a shame to never see the silver surfer and Galactus in the MCU.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76364: Nov 6th 2017 at 4:08:28 PM

Meanwhile, who cares about d'em muties huh?

But seriously, while FF coming over could happen one day, it kinda irks me that the Xmen Franchise, just like in the comics, seems like it's in it's own little world quite permanently.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76365: Nov 6th 2017 at 4:33:58 PM

[up] I don't WANT the X-men in the MCU. I always felt that the concept with the X-men doesn't really merge that will with an universe in which the Avengers are considered heroes. Even if Marvel gets the X-men back, I still would want them to keep their version in their own universe.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76366: Nov 6th 2017 at 4:43:31 PM

Geez people weren't kidding when they said episode 12 of Iron Fist really feels like a finale...it was honestly a fairly decent episode as well. I'll have my full review up soon since I plan on finishing the series tonight, but these last few episodes have been the best in the series IMO and almost make me forget about...everything else that's been wrong and hasn't necessarily been fixed.

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#76367: Nov 6th 2017 at 5:55:46 PM

I have a question for people who are more familiar with the MCU than I am. I want to see Ragnarok, but I haven’t seen the first two Thor films. Are they essential to understanding the plot, or do the Avengers movies also cover the most important details?

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76369: Nov 6th 2017 at 6:18:57 PM

[up][up]In Thor 2, it was believed that Loki died sacrificing himself against the Dark Elves, but the ending reveals (to the audience only) that he's not only still alive, but he's somehow deposed Odin and is now ruling Asgard while disguised as him. Also, Heimdall, the guy in charge of Asgard's portal to other worlds, has been replaced, but Thor doesn't know that yet since he hasn't gone home since Avengers 2.

That's about all you need to know.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76370: Nov 6th 2017 at 6:23:24 PM

Also, Loki's is not an Asgardian, but a Frost Giant that Odin took in who may or may not have been intended to be used as a political tool and may or may not have been treated differently because of it, the revelation of which forms a decent chunk of the basis for his motivations.

edited 6th Nov '17 6:25:33 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#76371: Nov 6th 2017 at 6:43:52 PM

Also Loki betrays Thor over and over and over and over and over and over again...

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#76372: Nov 6th 2017 at 6:47:52 PM

But occasionally he’s not a jerk, which makes Thor hopeful.

Then Loki does something awful again.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76373: Nov 6th 2017 at 7:01:46 PM

So it's done...

I have to confess that originally I wasn't planning on watching Iron Fist at all. Based on what I'd heard, it didn't really sound like it would be my cup of tea. The premise didn't really sell me, the word of mouth from people I trusted was fairly bad, and on top of that I didn't have a previous connection with the Iron Fist character either. So I was content to pass on it.

Of course, I ended up changing my mind, but because I wanted to see Defenders, not Iron Fist itself. I figured I probably would be somewhat confused if I just opted to skip it, so I opted to sit through it, both so I would be caught up and to form my own opinion on the show.

As it turns out, I don't think Iron Fist is really bad, per se. You can find many TV series which are liable to be a lot worse. IF does have some noticeable positives...but the thing is, it really does take a while for them to become apparent. And when they did, especially in the last few episodes, it almost made me forget just how uneven this series actually is.

While not absolutely horrible, I do think it is the worst of the Defenders shows by a good margin. There's an underlying reason for that, but I'll get to that towards the end.

The first big problem the series has is the fact that its first few episodes really, really, really, really suck. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that it's easily the worst TV I've seen in quite a while. There's literally nothing that would keep the viewer watching past the first episode unless they were determined to sit through the whole thing no matter what. The characters are completely uninteresting, the corporate politics are stifling, the pace is completely glacial as the Danny identity subplot gets dragged unreasonably long, the dialogue is bad (not always, but often)...it's oppressively boring, and honestly I think that's a much worse quality than whatever the problems were with Luke Cage and DD S2'S second halves. Sure, the main plots ended up having some major issues, but there was a lot going on on the sides that was interesting (like the Punisher storyline, or Mariah and Shades' machinations), and you were still invested in the characters. Whatever their problems were, and there were a lot of them, I was still engaged. But here, there's nothing worth caring about.

Of course, the show does get a lot better in the second half. Like I said earlier, I thought the last few episodes in particular were especially enjoyable, because they almost made me forget about all the problems that plagued the show since the beginning and which, honestly, a number of them never went away, I just got distracted from them, but looking back at the series they're as clear as ever.

I feel like the most important thing to talk about, first and foremost, is Danny himself. Much like the show itself, I don't actually hate Danny, but I think most people who do are fairly justified in doing so. The premise behind Danny's character is that he's supposed to be a more naive, optimistic person compared to the jaded, bitter protagonists of the other MCU shows. That's a fairly decent idea, and on paper, there are elements that could make him a fairly good character...but they never really come together. The main problem with Danny comes down to two things.

First, he's just not all that interesting, and honestly, that's pretty damning as far as I'm concerned. There's a certain lack of authenticity to the idea that he is supposed to be a strong warrior who rose above grief through spiritual pursuits and detachment from his upbringing. Sure, he might have the fighting prowess (which is undermined by the show's other problems) - but everything else about his person fails to convince. As some have put it, he feels like a trust fund hipster with pretensions of spirituality after vacationing in Hong Kong for a month. All of the eastern sayings he espouses don't feel quite right coming from him. The show's low production values really don't help it in this regard - its glimpses of Danny's training at the monastery are just that, glimpses, and most of it looks pretty cheap. Kun'Lun feels more like an idea than an actual place, and not in a good way. It stands in stark contrast to, say, Matt's detailed childhood flashbacks, which greatly inform his character and his relationship with his father. Danny has one flashback that gets referenced over and over, and it's not especially well-written or impactful. The actors who play his parents turn in horrible, wooden performances, completely ruining what might have been emotional scenes that would have helped people empathize with Danny's character.

There is also the elephant in the room - the Mighty Whitey nature of the Iron Fist character itself, which goes beyond the show and represents a bigger core problem with the source material. There's just no way of getting around how off-putting it is, and how it permeates a tired trend of asian people's culture being used as a backdrop for stories that don't feel the need to include actual asian people at the center. It's distracting right from the first episode, and it only becomes moreso as the series goes on. People can make excuses for it, but I'm sorry, there was never any real good way to fix it other than casting an asian actor. And they didn't, so it's a problem. That's all there is to it.

It's worth pointing out that there's a certain "been there, done that" with Danny's particular Mighty Whitey story - it's highly reminiscent of both Batman Begins and Doctor Strange, both of which have their heroes undergo serious personal tragedy, only to find enlightenment as a result of their training in snowy asian mountains. There are various differences between all these stories of course - but they are similar enough so as to be noticeable, and more than that, the familiarity of the premise only serves to highlight how both those films did this concept in a far more engaging way. In the end, it is only a multiplier - had this been a better show, it would have still been an issue, but the audience might have been more willing to overlook it, but since it isn't, it only sticks out even more.

There's also Finn Jones He may not be a terrible actor - I have not seen him in anything else besides Iron Fist - but nothing about his performance here makes me think he's qualified to be a leading man. He has no charisma, none of the stage presence or gravitas that Charlie Cox, Michael Coulter and Krysten Ritter brought to their respective characters. It's unclear to me to what extent Jones is responsible for the problems in Danny's character, but I think it's fair to say that he shoulders a fair part of the blame. To be honest, his casting is baffling overall - not only is his acting just serviceable at best, but he isn't american, has no martial arts background, AND he was chosen over Lewis Tan, whose character, the drunken fist master Zhou Cheng was far more interesting in 10 minutes than Danny was throughout the entire show. Jones is frequently unable to sell Danny's naiveté and strong sense of justice as endearing, sympathetic qualities, which instead often come across as self-righteous and bone-headed. His fits of rage come across as the petulant tantrums of a spoiled manchild that make it hard to take him seriously. Sometimes it even makes him unintentionally creepy, which is a constant in many of his other actions as well, particularly when it comes to Colleen.

Speaking of which, the other big problem is that the show completely misreads how a sensible audience would react to some of Danny's behavior. On top of not being super interesting, he acts like a complete asshat a number of times, and while he does get called out for his flaws to varying degrees, some of the terrible things he does are completely glossed over. His entire courtship with Colleen is a mess of Unfortunate Implications where Danny just keeps intruding upon her person in multiple ways - her personal space, her finances, her dojo, her students - it's clear that Danny's heart is in the right place and that he never means any harm, but it's sloppy writing because he never gets called out on it. Colleen puts up a fight at first, but really, overall she doesn't seem to mind too much - and that's horrible because it ends up having a negative effect on her character. Danny acts like a complete ass but she mostly just brushes it off. When they finally become an Official Couple, it doesn't feel believable. Why would you fall in love with a dopey, bland idiot who repeatedly undermines you without even realizing it? It makes her feel like some kind of masochist and their relationships feels forced.

To be fair, after they get together I didn't notice Danny unintentionally belittling Colleen anywhere as much, to the point where towards the end I sort of forgot that I hated them as a couple because of the parallels they set up that show just where they were actually going with the whole thing - but looking back, it's not enough to make up for how problematic and unearned them becoming a couple in the first place is. It's easily the most sloppily written of the main romances in the Defenders shows, yes even worse than Matt and Karen or Luke and Claire.

I feel ultimately this is the main reason why Danny's detractors hate him so much: because he's whitebread and boring, the audience isn't really inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt or read his actions in a positive light, and in combination with the sloppy writing that makes him come across as worse than the writers intend, it tends to create a strong reaction. People are more willing to forgive say, Matt or Tony's poor behavior because they're interesting characters, and the drama in the story is strong enough to create a proper sense of empathy and remind us that people make mistakes, even us, sometimes horrible one - we're all only human. But that sense of empathy is highly compromised by the poor decisions the writers make, so people tend to get annoyed with Danny more than anything else.

In many ways Danny is exactly the kind of character screenwriting 101 classes are teaching you not to write. In the end I feel ambivalent about him - I even found him mostly tolerable in the last few episodes - but Finn Jones shouldn't have been cast into the role, and he should be far better written than he actually is.

Funnily enough, the show has a far better example of a flawed but compelling character in Ward Meachum. Ward makes a poor first impression; for the first few episodes, he comes off as little more than a one-note, over-the-top corporate asshole. The flashback where he bullies Danny while they’re playing a board game with Joy is completely ridiculous and makes it hard to take him seriously as a real person. It comes as a surprise then, that he’s actually a vulnerable man with a severe drug addiction and a fragile psyche prone to delusions, struggling to get out from under his father’s thumb. He doesn’t actually care about Rand, because it doesn’t represent the life he wanted for himself, but rather the one his father imposed on him. In part because this is so unexpected, and because he’s the character with the strongest core of humanity, Ward is one half of the shriveled but beating heart of Iron Fist, the one thing that really stands out as truly good in a sea of poorly edited fight scenes, insipid characters, and uninspired direction. Ward is responsible for the small handful of scenes that actually inspired genuine compassion and empathy from me.

The second half is Harold. Truthfully, I don’t think Harold is up to the standards of the other Netflix villains, such as Wilson Fisk, the Punisher, Kilgrave, Cottonmouth, and Mariah (we’ve already established Diamondback was not a good villain, so fair enough there); perhaps in a series with a better showrunner, he would be. It doesn’t help that he spends much of the show in his penthouse, either. Having said that, he’s the one other character in the show where the writers found more success than failure. There is a compelling ambiguity to him; it’s strongly implied that he does in fact love his children, in his own way, but it is a love profoundly twisted, and to what degree it was so before his resurrections is unclear, which only makes him more interesting. It’s hard to deny the kind of perverted charisma he exudes, veiling his real intentions in honeyed words even as he engages in increasingly greater acts of physical and emotional abuse. His final confrontation with Danny, I feel, is fairly satisfying in the end.

But then we get to Joy. My opinion on Joy is that she's a potentially decent character who's woefully misused. Her role in the show largely consists of repeatedly asking the main male characters if she can be a part of the plot, and they repeatedly refuse her. The main issue with the whole claim about a metanarrative of female characters getting sidelined and eventually asserting their own agency is that the show's execution of this idea isn't all that fulfilling, because Joy ultimately is still sidelined of the majority of the plot no matter what your excuse is. Besides letting Danny into the company and helping out with Harold's scheme at the end, she doesn't really contribute that much outside of being an object for the main characters to worry about and fight over, so much so that she plays Damsel in Distress multiple times. If Joy was given her own, compelling plotline parallel to what's going on, and her being shut out was just one aspect of her character, it would perhaps work. But that's not really the case, so people are justified in complaining about her, even if her character is far better handled in season 2 of Iron Fist.

Another aspect that really hurts the show is the shoddy direction and editing. There's been a lot of talk about the bad fight scene editing - I admit I'm not an expert on the subject, but it's easy to see what the problem is. There's so many unnecessary cuts in almost all the fights, and it's really distracting and honestly a disappointment compared to Daredevil's excellent fight scenes that were consistently a highlight of that show.

I also think that there's a certain lack of care when it comes to the eastern inspired elements of the show as well. For just one example, The Bride of the Nine Spiders was laughable - she looks like a Mortal Kombat character, her dialogue is Narmy and she's a generic Vamp Dragon Lady. Not exactly very sensitive.

I think the main issue with Iron Fist is that compared to the other Netflix shows, it really doesn't feel like it has a strong reason to be. The main theme of Iron Fist, surprisingly, ends up being the idea of family. Danny lost his family and has tried multiple times to find a new one, both with Kun'Lun and the Meachums, and neither has given him what he wanted. The Meachums themselves have been ruined by Harold's lies and malice, and their family is basically destroyed in the end with Ward and Joy both traumatized by the events and on poor terms with one another. Colleen also thinks she's found a family in the Hand, but ultimately her family only cares about her as a tool and is quick to dispose of her when she goes against their interests. More pointedly, IF is about how important having a family is and how screwed up people will be if they don't have someone who they can trust unconditionally.

But that theme is compromised by a number of issues that I've already highlighted, and if you compare this to the other Netflix shows, no matter what their problems, they have a much stronger reason to exist and a far stronger creative vision. LC and JJ both tackled themes that were rarely seen on TV and explored them to greater depth than basically any other TV show or movie I can think of. Even if they have issues, they really have something valuable to say and you have a reason to watch them over other shows. DD is a lot more conventional, but again, no matter its problems, I feel its writers have a much better idea of what they're doing and how to create likable and compelling characters, purposeful themes, and a rich atmosphere. With the exception of the Hand plotline in season 2, it has a much cleaner execution and attention to detail than Iron Fist, which is often very, very sloppy.

Overall, I don't regret watching Iron Fist but I really think this show could have been so much better if they had more time, gotten a better showrunner, and cast someone else besides Finn Jones. As it is, overall I think it's a mixed bag at best.

edited 6th Nov '17 8:24:46 PM by Draghinazzo

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#76374: Nov 6th 2017 at 7:11:06 PM

That is a thoughtful, detailed, and overall useful review. Bravo.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76375: Nov 6th 2017 at 7:14:42 PM

I've just come to the conclusion that Scott Buck has some kind of fetishistic love for main characters who are privileged, bland assholes we're supposed to root for because they're the protagonists and no other reason. Inhumans has made that incredibly clear to me with the main characters (a royal family, about as privileged as you can get) backing a goddamned caste system built on slavery, and yet they're barely interesting, flatter than cardboard, and probably bigger assholes than Danny Rand ever was, which is saying a lot coming from me.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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