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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76176: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:54:06 PM

[up][up][up] That's just factually incorrect lol. It's a complicated relationship but implying that media doesn't affect how people see the world is disingenuous.

[nja]

edited 2nd Nov '17 9:54:39 PM by Draghinazzo

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76177: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:55:21 PM

...so you're literally saying sexism in media doesn't even matter, Goji?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#76178: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:57:05 PM

I'm honestly just sick of this being repeated so many times; we get it, it's sexist, you don't have to keep bringing it up every other day like clockwork.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76179: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:58:20 PM

Sexism and racism are only important to media that addresses sexism and racism as a major theme, and the Netflix shows already covered that ground with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, respectively. They filled their social justice quota, and Iron Fist is meant to be a show about corporate espionage and martial arts and the duality between the two sides of Danny's life, not sexism or racism.

I'm being halfway sarcastic. This is just how Hollywood works. I don't much like it, either.

edited 2nd Nov '17 9:59:30 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76180: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:58:38 PM

[up][up] Well, if Tobias is doing a liveblog, and he thinks it's a recurring issue, then yeah, he's going to bring it up. I don't know what you expect him to do about it.

[up] That is...not how it works.

Like, what, if a story engages in racial stereotypes, it doesn't matter if the story itself isn't about race? Where's the logic in that?

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:00:16 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76181: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:58:49 PM

Social justice quota?

I'm sorry, but...social justice quota?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76182: Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:59:22 PM

Uh, no. Race and gender are not toys you can put back in the box when you're done with them. People don't stop having a race or gender if the story isn't focused on that particular aspect.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76183: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:01:50 PM

I edited my post and it appears it went unseen. Here's my thoughts on that trend.

I'm being halfway sarcastic. This is just how Hollywood works. I don't much like it, either.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76184: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:02:43 PM

If you were being sarcastic then put it under Sarcasm Mode.

Either way, just saying it's because it's how Hollywood works doesn't excuse it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76185: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:03:20 PM

[up][up] I see. My apologies for jumping on you like that, then.

Although, yeah, Sarcasm Mode is your friend here.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:03:55 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76186: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:04:30 PM

Well, if Tobias is doing a liveblog, and he thinks it's a recurring issue, then yeah, he's going to bring it up. I don't know what you expect him to do about it.

I'm also watching the show right now myself, and I was probably going to end up mentioning it at some point, whether it be a quick mention if I see something as I'm watching or in my longform review that I'm eventually going to post.

I get that it's tiring for people who like Danny or IF for them to get constantly dumpstered over and over (trust me, I don't like having things I like get shafted either) , and I think Tobias probably does come across a bit too vitriolic sometimes (even if I understand why), but I don't know if you can really avoid that when it comes to a show and character that's this divisive.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76187: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:05:48 PM

I did the same stuff when I watched the show. Tobias has the right to express his criticisms and there's no real way to avoid it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76188: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:19:46 PM

I am being serious, though, because that is how it works.

Jessica Jones is a show about sexism and rape culture with a side of toxic masculinity, so every single episode of it is about those themes and almost nothing else. The villain ties back into rape culture, so the show doesn't need to have any extraneous themes aside from the ones mentioned above. Jessica Jones hardly ever mentions anything about racism.

Luke Cage is about black culture, so it puts a heavy focus on that, with little else. Every episode is about how black Harlem is and how black people are treated by police officers or by prison guards or by mobsters. Luke Cage addresses sexism maybe two or three times in the whole show.

Iron Fist is not about sexism or racism, so neither are given focus. Same with Daredevil, racism and sexism are almost never addressed and certainly not enough to make it a theme.

When you make a tv show, you need to have a few major themes it follows, and adding any more themes to the show is seen as overcomplicating the story. Racism and sexism are big themes, and adding them haphazardly to a show means that something else needs to be sacrificed to make room. If you want a show to address racism and sexism, it needs to be about racism and sexism, and there's very little room to add any themes to a show about racism and sexism that aren't related to either.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#76189: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:19:47 PM

Look, I'm honestly just tired of the vitriol; I'm just really getting sick of most of the threads I'm following (that are still regularly being updated) constantly dissolving into some argument over something, no matter how minor, every other day, or just talking about how this thing is oh so terrible. I get it, you either dislike or flat-out hate the damn thing, I don't need to see you keep repeating the same damn shit everytime it gets brought up.

I just want to be able to like the stuff I like, and actually have people to talk to about it, without constantly having to hear the same thing over and over again. I've already have to deal with stuff bordering on outright hate in the Naruto and Fairy Tail threads, which yes, I still actually like, and I've had to deal with nothing but this in the former for several years, even though that should have locked the thread before the first year. Really, it's just becoming hard to care about what most of the people in these threads say, and yes, I find myself wanting them to just leave and never come back for my own happiness and peace of mind. Yes, I know it's bad, and I both understand and agree with that, but I just can't stop thinking like that, and I...just kind of hate myself for thinking that at all.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76190: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:22:26 PM

[up][up]

...okay so you weren't joking then, you're serious that the show shouldn't be called sexist because it's "not about addressing sexism".

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76191: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:23:39 PM

Draghinazzo, you're actually at a point where I really felt the problems were very well displayed.

The sequence of events at which Danny enters the dojo and attempts to dismiss Colleen's lesson with Claire because he's decided unilaterally that she's having a romantic dinner with him. And then, after trying to recruit her for an illegal job he wants performed, she pushes back so he reveals that he purchased her building and uses her rent as leverage to persuade her.

If you were to carve Danny out of this scene and replace him with Wilson Fisk, then proceed with everything else exactly as is, it would be perfect. I'd be commending the scene for it's amazing demonstration of the intersection between power and sexuality. I'd be calling it a Jessica Jones-level portrayal of being the target of a rich and powerful man's infatuation, how far-reaching and nigh inescapable such a man can be, and how frightening yet critical it is that Colleen must find a way to get out from under his thumb.

But it's not Fisk. It's Danny, and you're supposed to come away from this scene going, "Aw, he's such a sweetheart! These two are a great love story."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76192: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:25:05 PM

I'm saying that you shouldn't expect a show that isn't blatantly about sexism to address it.

[up]Again, he's rich so that's his idea of a casual meal between friends. I doubt he even thought it could be taken as romantic until it was suggested to him.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:26:32 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76193: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:25:09 PM

It doesn't have to be about racism and sexism to avoid being racist or sexist. Like, these are fairly low bars that Iron Fist didn't manage to clear in order to be, if not necessarily progressive, at least not regressive.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:25:33 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76194: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:25:51 PM

I expect a show not blatantly about sexism or racism to at least not be sexist or racist.

[down]

Oh please, don't insult ninjas like that.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:26:53 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76195: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:25:57 PM

[up][up][up] Nobody's expecting the show to address sexism. They're expecting the show to be written in a way that is not, itself, sexist. Those are two entirely different things.

[nja]'d. Curse those Hand ninja's.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:26:14 PM by KnownUnknown

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#76196: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:26:12 PM

@Gojira: I'm sorry to hear that, but the truth is, I don't think we can just stop giving our opinions for a single person's sake.

That said, Tobias, I would ask you to tone down on the vitriol, though - it just gets unpleasant sometimes.

edited 2nd Nov '17 10:28:36 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#76197: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:29:58 PM

I'd at least like if there was some talk about what was actually enjoyable, without it just spiraling into hate, hate, and more hate.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76198: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:30:42 PM

I talk about many things that are enjoyable during my liveblogs. It's just the bits about Danny that always wind up sparking discussion.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#76199: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:32:33 PM

And dipping too far into the vitriol at times.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76200: Nov 2nd 2017 at 10:34:01 PM

This is dipping into tone policing.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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