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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76101: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:35:19 PM

So I started Iron Fist today. I'm not going to liveblog the whole thing, but I think first episodes are sort of important to a series and setting up expectations, so...

This was sort of...eh? Compared to every other one of the Defenders shows it was just sort of lacking. None of the characters really come across as particularly interesting or make much of an impression, and I get that it's the first episode so obviously everything isn't on the table yet, but DD, JJ, and LC were all immediately a lot more compelling.

The first episode didn't make me hate Danny or anything, but I feel like he does come across as worse than the show intends him to in multiple regards. I can understand why he's frustrated of course; everyone just kind of brushes him off and refuses to take him seriously and it's obvious he doesn't mean anyone any real harm, he's just clueless and socially dumb because he's been living in a monastery since he was 10 and so he has no idea how anything about the world works. And while he is kinda rude and pushy to Colleen, he does back down and apologize.

However, he was douchey to Big Al by implying that he's better than him after he helped him out by looking up information (I'm not really sure what "everyone looking at both of us would think we're pretty much the same" is supposed to imply other than that), and I'm surprised he came back and tried to help him any more after that. And there's just something that feels inauthentic about him, like when he tries to quote the Buddha and zen sayings, and the fact that he's a white guy in the middle of this heavily east asian backdrop makes him stick out like a sore thumb and really highlights how Finn Jones shouldn't really have been picked for this role. I can kinda see why he's accused of coming across as some white guy who went to China for a few days and starts acting all enlightened after he comes back.

Moreover I'm not really sure why he expects anyone to buy the whole mysticism thing. I don't think him being socially stunted excuses that because even as a kid you kinda develop the idea of what's normal in your world and what isn't, and 10 is old enough to realize that secret mystical societies that teach kung fu and being a great warrior destined to protect humanity or whatever aren't concepts that are gonna be taken seriously.

edited 30th Oct '17 8:35:57 PM by Draghinazzo

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76102: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:38:05 PM

Iron Fist is a bit of an inversion from JJ, LC, and DDS 2 in that it starts off slow and picks up the pace later for a good second half, instead of starting off strong and then petering out.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76103: Oct 30th 2017 at 9:14:56 PM

"everyone looking at both of us would think we're pretty much the same"

Forgot about that line. It really is condescending, isn't it? And the fact that Al dies so that Danny gets to be sad but doesn't actually have to learn anything about the plight of the homeless is just added salt in the wound.

edited 30th Oct '17 11:19:16 PM by Unsung

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76104: Oct 30th 2017 at 11:18:08 PM

Also, I didn't talk about it initially because I thought maybe I was being too hard on the show, but since the YMMV page mentioned it:

The flashback scene of Ward bullying Danny was kind of hilariously cartoonish. I get that kids are dicks to each other, but it just wasn't well-written. "My dad says rules are for losers!" Really? The only thing the scene does is help make it more understandable for Danny to dislike him and treat him poorly.

edited 30th Oct '17 11:22:36 PM by Draghinazzo

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76105: Oct 31st 2017 at 2:33:13 AM

Honestly, this Danny hate really gets tedious. Now he even gets dinged for actually paying the guy in whose restaurant they hide out (and talking to him in his mother tongue) instead of just forcing him to accept them? Plus, the real douche in this scene is Matt for keeping important information from the others.

Anyway...this is somewhat the best episode of the series, because seeing the different personalities crash is really interesting. Danny's upbeat personality really work there, because he is an important counterpoint to all those brooding pessimists around him and Jessica is brilliant as always. But this is also the first episode in which I really started to notice the directing problem. Someone went through all the trouble to design the whole set in a way that each Defender would set before a backdrop representing his colour and personality, but you can barely see it because the camera is constantly moving in circles, until you get the feeling that you are looking at a bag of skittles. And is it too hard to adjust the damned camera in a way that it isn't obvious that Sticks hacked off arm is still as long as the healthy one? Honestly, that is optical illusion 101.

And we have again the story-telling problems. Iron Fist went out of its way to set down a few ground rules for the hand zombies only for the Defenders to throw them all over board again. We still have no explanation what the Black Sky actually is. And then there is this really contrived way to get Stick into the restaurant. Yes, Danny wouldn't be so stupid to keep his mobile but also why the hell should Colleen tell some random guy where Danny is and stay at home herself?

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#76106: Oct 31st 2017 at 5:27:01 AM

Stick's got the same hearing capabilities as Matt. He could've easily eavesdropped on the phonecall from the other side of the room.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76107: Oct 31st 2017 at 6:07:45 AM

Honestly, this Danny hate really gets tedious. Now he even gets dinged for actually paying the guy in whose restaurant they hide out (and talking to him in his mother tongue) instead of just forcing him to accept them? Plus, the real douche in this scene is Matt for keeping important information from the others.

I was dinging him for his big shit-eating grin afterwards, like he was waiting for everyone to praise him for his brilliant solution of buying the problem away, actually.

Danny wouldn't be so stupid to keep his mobile

Danny provably would be so stupid to keep his mobile. He does it in Iron Fist. He smashes Davos's phone but then answers his own phone a scene later.

EDIT: The thing about contentious characters is that they don't stop being contentious just because an arbitrary number of episodes has passed. If the question here is, "How many episodes does Danny need to be in before I spontaneously declare him absolved of all wrongdoing," there's not really an answer to that because it's a ridiculous question.

More exposure does not fix a broken character. Often times, it makes a broken character shittier. Character Development has to do that, and while Defenders is certainly trying to address Danny's problem of trying to do everything himself, the issues with his character run much deeper than that.

Iron Fist shit the bed when it comes to making Danny a likable protagonist, and Defenders is more interested in making jokes about how shitty he is than actually rescuing him from the Scrappy Heap. Consequentially, he remains shitty, even if his shitty qualities aren't always on display 24/7..

Despite Defenders's efforts, it makes the same cardinal sin as Iron Fist: the assumption that Danny will be taken to be a flawed but ultimately heroic figure just because he's the main character of Iron Fist. The problem with that is that Danny has never done a heroic deed in his life.

Opposing people who are bad does not inherently make you good, and that's the issue at the heart of Danny's character. The KKK and Neo-Nazis hate each other's f*cking guts, but neither of them are heroes.

Defenders addresses the problem with how Danny pursues his vendetta but as of yet has failed to address the issue that a vendetta is all it is. He despises The Hand for how they've sleighted him, personally, and that's not a heroic motivation at all.

edited 31st Oct '17 6:23:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#76108: Oct 31st 2017 at 8:19:27 AM

You win Nightwire. Im going to read Thor the Mighty based on your rec

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76109: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:26:57 AM

[up][up] It just bothers me because it isn't just Danny...it is an ongoing writing problem with the Defenders. As I mentioned beforehand, the show keeps letting the characters doing out of character and stupid nonsense in order to get the scene it wants. And by focussing so much on Danny, I feel the larger problem of the show gets overlooked, even worse, it gets a pass because it constantly lets its characters tell off Danny and everyone is then celebrating the big "take that" - even when Danny is actually right in the situation at hand, but that is not even the point. It is easy to ding something as not good enough. It is not as easy to do is better. And I don't think that The Defenders does it better, quite the opposite, in no iteration of the Defenders have the characters so inconsistent and, well, unlikable. The only one who escapes is Jessica, every other character in this show constantly acts stupid for the sake of plot conveniences. And Danny keeping his phone is just another case of it. By the time the show is over there is a whole list of moments like this.

And yes, that means that I think that the Defenders is the weakest of the Netflix shows...it doesn't have the weakest arc, that honour belongs to Daredevil season 2 second half (though that this one bleeds into the Defenders doesn't help at all), but it feels like some sort of collection of mistakes which is only keep together (just) by the performance of the actors. Well, most of them, I have no idea what the actor of Stick was doing, he really phoned it in.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76110: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:30:04 AM

I really enjoyed Defenders, and I thought it worked really well for the same reasons Avengers worked really well: the character dynamics. These character are only human, sometimes they jump to conclusions or make mistakes.

edited 31st Oct '17 10:30:13 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76111: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:55:59 AM

Yeah, I don't really find the characters particularly inconsistent or unlikable, so... (shrugs) Diff'rent strokes? Agree to disagree? You could just as easily say that Iron Fist's 'fixes' contradict what had come before, and that Daredevil Season 2 squanders the tension the Hand had built up, and that as of the Defenders, the Hand remain an incredibly vague force even now that they're pretty much entirely spent. Expending the last of their resources on the Black Sky doesn't really seem to have accomplished their supposed goals at all, unless Elektra is meant to be the earthly avatar of the demons the Hand worships in the comics or something. But the Defenders themselves act according to their established characters against a threat of which most of them have no real knowledge. So if they're fumbling around in the dark a bit, I don't think that's such a bad thing. The story could have been plotted more tightly, but that's not a mark against the characters for me.

About Stick, it's not Scott Glenn phoning it in, it's Stick, in universe: the guy can't muster up any enthusiasm for anything but remains absolutely dedicated to his duty and cause regardless, and it's awesome.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76112: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:08:55 AM

For me, I just feel like the end of episode three perfectly encapsulated my problem with Danny. Out of everyone involved in the fighting:

  • Matt was there because he was trying to help a lost soul and, while doing so, overheard violence going down in his vicinity. Being the kind of guy he is, he couldn't help but leap into the fray, even if it meant endangering his secret identity. Protecting people under assault took precedence.
  • Jessica was there because despite her best efforts to claim otherwise, she can't look the other way when people are being hurt. A family's been torn apart and she will not be satisfied until she knows why, even if it puts her life in jeopardy to do so.
  • Luke was there because someone's been taking advantage of underprivileged youths in his community, seducing them into a life of crime, using them, and murdering them. He wants that to stop being a thing.
  • Danny was there because he wanted to rub his balls in the face of some people he doesn't like.

All of these motives are consistent with the characters and direction of their respective shows, which makes me reticent to call it bad writing. Episode three featured three heroes converging on The Hand and also Danny was present.

edited 31st Oct '17 11:09:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76113: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:37:24 AM

I do find unfair to say Danny is in it solely because he "doesn't like" the Hand. The motivation of "I hate them because of what they did to me" was IF s1. His whole drive in the Defenders is that he realized he fucked up by abandoning K'un-Lun and is now trying to do what an Iron Fist is actually supposed to do and destroy the Hand and save his people.

You could argue Danny's moral worldview is simplistic and childish and that'd be true, but his drive in the Defenders seems primarily "I must destroy these evil people".

You could argue it's self-serving in the sense he has only a vague idea of why the Hand is evil since he's been indoctrinated from birth to believe they are evil no matter what, but that'd apply the same to Matt.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76114: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:52:41 AM

It's not quite the same. Stick cut off Matt's indoctrination before they'd even gotten to the point of mentioning the Hand. Matt's up against them because they're yet another gang of criminals operating in his city. That this all ties back in with Stick and Elektra because it's just that huge is...not exactly a coincidence, but still unintentional. Matt's not in it for the war— he does, ultimately, do what he does to help people, now, today, and not for the abstract points-scoring of the Chaste.

The Chaste all getting killed offscreen was pretty lame, though. I'm hoping Stone and a small contingent of his most loyal followers survived somewhere. Not so much because I'm interested in following up on that loose end, but just because the idea that the whole organization could get themselves killed between the end of DD S2 and now makes the setting feel that much smaller.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76115: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:58:06 AM

I don't exactly mean Matt's indoctrination regarding the Hand, I mean more his burning obsession with justice which Stick beat onto him and Jack Murdock (accidentally) traumatized onto him. If Danny's wholly selfish and unheroic for adhering to the moral code he built his life upon, so is Matt. And so are a lot of characters and people.

Danny in the Defenders has a very simple and fairly heroic motivation: to atone for his failure in protecting K'un-Lun and set right what he made wrong. It's a step in the right direction, a step in becoming the protector of K'un-Lun.

edited 31st Oct '17 12:01:13 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76116: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:00:40 PM

Maybe so...but Matt had a better first series than Danny did.[lol]

He also didn't get an entire city of people killed, so he's got less shit on his plate.

I admit, I'm kinda losing the passion for Danny hate as well, but until he improves (and until people feel he's improved), he's still gonna get verbally reamed at every opportunity.

One Strip! One Strip!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76117: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:02:51 PM

I don't find Danny quite as offensive as Tobias, but I do get that distaste. It may be he's supposed to come across as more innocent and naive than he does, and there's ways to play that as appealing, but there's a little too much presumption and self-assurance in the Danny we see. He doesn't come across as someone who doesn't know any better— he seems more entrenched than that, somehow. To me, at least.

edited 31st Oct '17 12:03:45 PM by Unsung

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76118: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:03:44 PM

There's a lot to criticize in Danny, but people tend to lose sight of what. Even when Danny is actually entirely correct (read: most of the Defenders), people still give him shit, and when the writers manage to mildly rerail his motivations into something functional (from the confusing mess of IF to a simple "I fucked up and I gotta atone for it"), people don't notice.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#76119: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:04:10 PM

The only reason why I don't have a lot of hate for Danny right now (and mind you I still loathe the damned idiot) is because Inhumans has made me seethe with rage at the Inhuman Royal Family.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76120: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:10:01 PM

I do find unfair to say Danny is in it solely because he "doesn't like" the Hand. The motivation of "I hate them because of what they did to me" was IF s1. His whole drive in the Defenders is that he realized he fucked up by abandoning K'un-Lun and is now trying to do what an Iron Fist is actually supposed to do and destroy the Hand and save his people.

Is he, though? He's given no indication that he's willing to kill people now, and when talking about his motives, he hasn't once mentioned that K'un Lun was destroyed to Stick or the others. Instead, his motive rant still falls back to, "MY PARENTS MY PARENTS" when pressed.

He has talked about the destruction of K'un Lun in private to Colleen, but his parents remain the go-to answer for why he opposes The Hand when questioned.

EDIT: And I should note that even then, "I hate them all because they are the sworn enemy of my heritage," is not a marked improvement as a motive over "I hate them all because some members of their group have sleighted me, personally."

edited 31st Oct '17 12:13:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76121: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:39:36 PM

Saying that Danny is acting purely on personal vendetta is kinda disingenious. You may as well say Jessica only hunted Kilgrave down out of personal vendetta or Luke Cage only fought Diamondback out of personal vendetta. That would be false because they both clearly were concerned about protecting innocents and stopping a dangerous criminal from hurting anybody else, and it's pretty clearly the same with Danny and the Hand, else he wouldn't be trying to stop their magic drug trade, dueling warriors to rescue Sabine, or doing a certain thing he does in the Defenders finale (Taking up Daredevil's mantle) because none of those affect him personally or bring him much closer to destroying the Hand than any number of easier alternatives would.

It's fine to hate Danny Rand, but don't go making up shit that isn't even true when you've got plenty of other reasons.

(Edit: Holy crap I have an issue with run-on sentences.)

edited 31st Oct '17 1:01:22 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#76122: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:49:57 PM

I'm trying not to chip in too much before I've finished the show since I'll have a lot to say then, but these white flashes are really shitty special effects. They look like they belong in a Windows Movie Maker project.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#76123: Oct 31st 2017 at 12:52:58 PM

Yeah Tobias, sometimes you sink into Ron the Death Eater when talking about characters who got too strong of a negative emotional response from you. It's perfectly fine to get mad, but it's still a subjective reaction; don't feel like you have to invent in-universe reasons to justify why you find them offputting out-of-universe.

Anyway Evangeline Lilly posted a pic of herself in the Wasp costume.

edited 31st Oct '17 1:32:39 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#76124: Oct 31st 2017 at 1:00:11 PM

Hallelujah, I can finally see why this thing read as gold-yellowish to some people. Might be the light, but for the first time it doesn't look just grey with red highlights to me. (still think that the red highlights shouldn't be there, though).

Concerning Iron Fist: Yes, the flashbacks effects are bad. As is the editing which in turn ruins the fight scenes, and you can really see the lack of a budget in this one. Those are the points most people agree on. It's more the characters in which some people find merits and others don't.

On a different note, today I started an article series about the Marvel villains...in case someone is interested: https://swanpride3.wordpress.com/2017/10/31/marvel-musings-obadiah-stane/

edited 31st Oct '17 1:01:55 PM by Swanpride

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76125: Oct 31st 2017 at 1:17:07 PM

I'm not inventing anything. I genuinely do not get an impression from Danny that he cares about anyone but himself.

Yes, he did seem interested in stopping the drug trade and Sabine, but that was before he knew about his parents. After that, "MY PARENTS MY PARENTS" slipped into his motivation and became his driving purpose in every engagement.

I've seen people say that Danny starts out bad and undergoes character development in Iron Fist that makes him better and I agree with most of that statement, except the part about it making him better. His character development caused him to stop caring about Rand, about any ostensible goal of helping people, about anything but getting non-lethal blood vengeance. He started bad and became much, much shittier.

And that's more or less where he ended the series and began Defenders: still following his policy of single-mindedly seeking the emotionally satisfying but not altogether productive goal of punching ninjas and then prancing away like a magnificent poof, seeking the complete destruction of the organization through fisticuffs.

edited 31st Oct '17 1:17:27 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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