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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76076: Oct 30th 2017 at 5:54:58 PM

The Defenders, Episode Four

"We're closed." "We need to kill the lights!" I love how they just broke into some random guy's shop and seized it. Danny was at the head of the group, so it's like he just went, "I know where we can go," picked someone's restaurant at random, and everyone else just went with it. It's a crisis situation. Nobody's really going to waste time arguing with Danny when he decides that occupying that guy's business is the way to go.

And for good measure, it's a Chinese restaurant. Danny's Mighty Whitey sense was tingling. I can just see him telling the others, "Wait, hold up, I know where to go. There's a piece of Chinese culture I can appropriate nearby."

"I'm calling the police." "You can't do that. You'll be putting the cops in danger." Not really? The Hand's trying to avoid visibility; they aren't about to have ninjas openly massacring cops in the streets.

"Whoa, she is very strong." Welcome to Jessica, Danny. I know he has his Iron Fist but that's extremely limited-use. Out of everyone here, his superpower is the shittiest. Danny's basically the Badass Normal with occasional dabbling in superpowers.

"Who hears neon?!" It's called synesthesia and it's a medical condition that many people have. But Luke probably wouldn't know that, of course. Most people don't know about synesthesia unless they know someone who has it.

"Been working a case." "Yeah? How's that going for you?" I love seeing Luke and Jessica interact again. There's a general fondness for each other tainted by history that makes their engagements interesting.

"Agreed to pay the rent for the next six months." I love how satisfied Danny is with himself that he was able to solve the problem by just hucking money at it, and how badly Luke visibly wants to punch him in the face right now.

"They live by a fanatical ideology and every member is willing to die to protect it." You know, it's really easy to be willing to die for something when one of your core tenets is free resurrections. I'm just saying. It's not really fanatical to be like, "I give my life for my cause!" when you know you'll be waking up tomorrow anyway.

"So what do they want?" "Immortality." Uh, no. They already have that. Luke's asking what they're trying to achieve besides that.

"Do you know her?" "…no, no." Good to know Matt hasn't learned anything from D2. Faced with an important opportunity, he's like, "Yeah, I could do that, but…Elektra. Sorry, guys, hands are tied. I always shirk everything when Elektra's involved." And Danny's just like, "Bro, gotta get your dick wet, I understand."

"You want to take your hand off my shoulder." "Take off the mask." "You're not going to like where this is heading." [lol] I would like to see Matt try to hurt Luke. It'd be a repeat of Luke stomping Danny's face into the pavement except unlike Danny, Matt won't get in one decent punch.

"Whatever you're insinuating—" For a lawyer, Matt is really bad at reading a situation. He's actually shocked that Jessica was able to ID him as the Devil of Hell's Kitchen even though he's wearing her scarf for a mask and broke faces in front of her. There aren't a lot of guys wearing a mask and punching criminals. Yes, I know, superhero shared universe, but most of those guys aren't punching criminals. It's basically DareDevil or Spider-Man at this point.

"My name is Matthew." And there we go. I always enjoy superheroes unmasking and letting people into their inner circle. Largely because I think secret identities are dumb anyway, but when they must exist, it's nice when the character can open up and at least not be all, "No, this is my mission and I must do it all alone, no one can ever know, I must lie to all my friends and family in order to ensure that they are helpless if evil comes for them! It's the only way to keep them in a perpetual state of danger that I can heroically save them from!"

"This is how I died." "Don't worry about that." If I'd been murdered, I'd be worried about it. At the very least, I'd be concerned that my killer might want to murder me again if they found out I survived.

"Don't forget who brought us back." Alexandra makes it sound like there's some other power beyond even her. Is it turtles all the way down?

"What do you mean, you're DareDevil?" I'm surprised Danny's even heard of him.

"None of us are on police payroll. What we did back there was trespassing, aggravated assault, and vigilante bullshit." Jessica Jones is my spirit animal.

"This cannot be an accident." "Okay, I know you mean well, but we're not whatever you think we are." I don't like this response from Matt. Danny's basically saying that their arrival in the same place at the same time was an act of spiritual guidance. As a Catholic, you'd think "God willed it" would be a winning argument for Matt.

"This is one shitty excuse for a hideout." Okay, Stick better have a damn good explanation for how he found everyone at the random Chinese restaurant that even they didn't know they were going to use as a base until five seconds before it happened.

Creepy guy with knives. I assume this is White Hat.

"You should worry about the possibility of death." No, he shouldn't. Not if he's already received the process. It was made very clear with Harold's revivals that you don't need, like, subsequent treatments with each resurrection. He popped back to life in the middle of a swamp; no extra effort required.

"The problem with your leadership has always been the inability to get your hands dirty." That's accurate. She peaced out of her own ambush last episode.

"More powerful than you could ever imagine." Really? Because I'm imagining Luke right now, and I'm pretty sure if he'd engaged Elektra instead of Matt last episode, he could have literally picked her up, threw her over his shoulder, and carried her to the Chinese restaurant with him, and there'd be nothing she could do about it. If you want to make claims like that, you gotta give me something that can beat his invulnerability.

"Black Sky. Perhaps you'd be more effective on the battlefield if you killed your enemies rather than letting them escape." Okay, so this is White Hat.

"We call ourselves The Chaste." "God, these names are killing me." SPIRIT. ANIMAL.

"How come no one told me?" Because you f*cking left.

"Because this one, the Immortal Iron Fist, Living Weapon, and Protector of the Ancient City is still a thundering dumbass." Jessica is my Spirit Animal, Stick is Best Pony. Seriously, that bugged the shit out of me in Iron Fist. Danny knows better than this. He broke Davos's phone to keep it from being tracked, and then in like the next scene, he's answering his own phone like an idiot.

Danny thinks only other people's phones can be traced. Because he's a thundering dumbass. This is not, however, a satisfactory answer for how Stick found him because there's no way a bleeding man in a tourniquet wandering around back alleys was able to trace someone's phone.

"I tried to call Colleen. I told her where I was." Okay, so he got Danny's location straight from Colleen. That makes more sense. Stick's arrival is now justified, and Danny is even more of a thundering dumbass because this means that they wouldn't even need to trace his phone; just bug it.

"The Hand's done it before. Pompeii. Chernobyl." Ooo, nice history drop. Adds a layer of major threat to what, previously, was just a nuisance quake.

"Whatever this guy's selling, I ain't buying." "Sit down and shut up!" I love Jessica storming out right after that. Jessica Jones is not some Joy Meachum or Colleen Wing. She's not going to let you mistreat her and just be like, "Oh, men are speaking, I'll just go to my corner and wait quietly until they're done. Can I be involved? No? Okay. I'll ask again later."

"I don't know what it is that makes you care so much about other people but that's not me." Except it is. Jessica totally has that hero streak in her. She just doesn't like to admit it. She's a Knight in Sour Armor and that's what's so fascinating about her as a character. In a way, Danny and Jessica are the perfect foils for each other. Danny is a self-centered shitbag who likes to pretend that he's a noble hero. Jessica's a noble hero who likes to pretend that she's a self-centered shitbag. Give her a night to sleep on it and she'll be back.

"She left." "Use your powers?" "Nope. I've just met her." Yeah, you don't really need to know Jess for long to know she's going to punk out on you. The complex bit that takes some experience with her is knowing that she'll come back. I get the impression from Luke, the way he said goodbye, that he has that confidence. He knows that she needs time to wrestle with her inner nobility before her outer cynicism will crack and let a little light shine through. Just a little.

"I don't know her too well but, like me, she has a life." Pfft, no, she doesn't. And neither do you, for that matter. You used to have one, but between Karen and Foggy, you're on Jessica's level right now: a lonely asshole with only the barest semblance of social activity poking its way into your existence.

"Sooner or later, it's going to be everybody's fight." "Not if I can help it." He can. Luke totally can. He has the Superman problem, wherein it's not clear why any of these other assholes are even needed. Like, he could literally march into any of The Hand's operations, physically lift Alexandra over his shoulder, and bring her to Stick. Just like I suggested he could have done with Elektra. Much like in his own series, it's not clear how they could possibly even threaten him. Hopefully they'll come up with something without having to break out that Judas Bullet nonsense again.

They're really playing up Alexandra's illness and the lack of resources. Did they, like, run out of immortality somehow? That seems to be the impression here, but that totally conflicts with Harold's revivals. Like I said further up, he didn't need them to perform some ritual every time he died. They did it the one time and then he was just able to resurrect every time he died. It's never even been suggested that running out of Revival Energy or whatever is a thing that can happen.

I could understand them draining their resources meaning they can't make new Magic Ninjas, but the existing Ninjas spontaneously losing their Magic makes no sense.

Welcome home, Jessica. There's probably a ninja waiting for you.

Other people drink to kill their guilt or their regret or their self-esteem. Jessica drinks to kill her conscience.

"That's the same person. What the hell?" But she can't kill her curiosity.

"And so, like Lucifer from Heaven, the five were banished from K'un Lun forever." Alexandra and Gao are obviously two of them. Also, none of this would be happening if K'un Lun hadn't been like, "Take your wicked practices and leave our temple to go master them somewhere else. I don't care enough to stop this from becoming a problem, but so help me, you will be SOMEONE ELSE'S problem!"

"She helped set up my parents' murder." "She set up a lot of murders." I love this answer. Danny found an opportunity to make this about his petty vengeance and Stick just straight-up shut him down with perspective.

"Then there's Bakuto." "He's dead." No, he's not, you idiot.

"What he wants will put everyone we care about at risk." You know, for a man that doesn't actually have anyone in his life, Matt really likes to keep repeating this point.

Jessica excepted, he has less to lose than anyone here. Even Luke at least has a girlfriend. Matt has a strained "we have coffee" relationship and a friend who had to practically beg him to let him back into his life. I think he's just overreacting because of Elektra, but she was on the field as a combatant. She wasn't "put at risk"; she chose to be there.

"Are you drunk?" She's a P.I. She's always drunk.

"The car. It's been there since last night; he said he was a cop." Ninja!

"I couldn't her a heartbeat." That's interesting. Elektra's heart isn't actually beating? She's undead rather than revived? That raises so many questions.

"How'd they find us?" Dumbass's phone, remember?

"How about the woman with the swords?" Sorry, Luke, but Matt can't hear them loading and removing the safeties from any swords. He'll let you know if he does.

"This wouldn't be my first choice but I am a sucker for fortune cookies." Ninja for the win! While everyone was paying attention to the van, Alexandra slipped in here, sat herself down at their table, and then presumably stifled a giggle about how cool this is going to be when they notice. I imagine she rolled her eyes at the sword question too.

"I don't think we've been properly introduced." Grab her, Luke. Physically pick her up and take her wherever stick wants to go. It is literally impossible for her to stop you.

"Mr. Rand, you need to think this through." "And you need to leave." Bullshit, she does. She needs to be taken into custody. GRAB HER.

"The only language they speak is violence." Matt, you just heard someone loading and removing the safety from a sword. You were supposed to tell Luke.

"Go on, my child. Serve life itself." And then Alexandra peaces out again. This is supposed to be all ominous and shit but I'm still not clear what Elektra could possibly do to get through the impenetrable wall of Luke.

JESSICA. That was TOTALLY uncalled for. Someone's going to have to pay for that storefront and Danny only promised rent! You did not need to drive a car into Elektra when Luke could have bear-hugged her just fine.

I like how nobody actually takes advantage of the opportunity Jessica bought here. They all just stand around with their thumbs up their asses and wait for Elektra to get back on her feet and pick her weapons up. Even Stick.

Well, that was interesting. The inevitable team-up episode where everyone agrees to come together. Kinda crapped out at the end there, though.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76077: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:09:37 PM

You're massively overrating Luke's invulnerability. As later episodes will demonstrate, sufficiently skilled martial artists can dent his armor.

He's only invincible as far as regular folks and guns are concerned. Magic ninjas have their ways.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76078: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:34:55 PM

  • I can hear neon and I don't even have superpowers. Fluorescent bulbs buzz. Matt can hear the ones outside and on the roof, though, presumably.
  • Catholics tend to believe divine signs need to be a lot more overt if they're going to be accepted on sight. God's will is something you can only really assess after the fact, for the most part.
  • The Hand actually don't have unlimited free resurrections, as you'll be finding out. I get the impression that this is what the Hand zombies were— people who got a very limited dose of dragon bone sludge. For whatever reason, the Hand was willing to give Harold the full treatment, which is interesting in and of itself...unless it was just writing convenience and is going to be forgotten forever, now. But I think what's happening is that the more dragon bone junk is transfused into a person, the easier it is for them to regenerate upon death. Maybe the worse their injuries, the more mojo they use up, while still retaining a certain amount in their system. And Alexandra's problem is that she's built up a tolerance.
    • Does it make sense? Ehhh. [seesawing motions] The less they explain it, the better it works, I think. I never needed to know everything about the Hand, just something.
  • Danny would work a lot better for me if he was genuinely mentally ill. I don't mean that as a dig or a joke— if K'un-Lun was real and Danny did in fact have all this trauma to process, but he was still emotionally unstable beyond all that, maybe delusional or bipolar, if he was the martial arts equivalent of Gregory House, that could actually make his behaviour a lot more relatable for me.
  • Elektra has Hand training now, so she might be masking her heartbeat. Not sure whether any of the non-zombie Hand could do that or not. Nobu could.
  • [up] Yeah, and Matt's really good at hurting people and Luke's kind of complacent because he wouldn't be expecting it. Blunt impacts no good? Unbreakable bones? Perfect, no need to hold back. Move onto eyes and mouth, let's give strangling a try. Someone who can take an unlimited amount of beating and never die sounds perfect for Matt, actually. Which puts his final fight of this season into yet another perspective.

edited 30th Oct '17 6:50:08 PM by Unsung

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76079: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:47:33 PM

The heart beat was also a thing from Daredevil Season 2, so it's consistent. Apparently magic ninjas can mask the sound of their heartbeat, which would be utterly useless against anyone except Matt.

On the limited immortality thing, I interpreted it as: they need to refresh the resurrection ritual every 5 deaths or so because if they don't, they eventually run out of magic immortality juice and don't auto-revive. The Hand's conflict in Defenders is that they used the last of whatever macguffin is used to make the ritual work to resurrect Elektra.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76080: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:47:44 PM

You're massively overrating Luke's invulnerability. As later episodes will demonstrate, sufficiently skilled martial artists can dent his armor.

He's only invincible as far as regular folks and guns are concerned. Magic ninjas have their ways.

Have you ever been shot? Bullets hit really hard. The fastest punch in history was thrown at 45 mph. The average bullet travels at 1,700 mph and has a conical shape for piercing targets. If Luke's hide can stop a bullet, no punch should ever harm him, no matter how talented the martial artist throwing it is.

Danny's Iron Fist excepted, and even that was more of a "Wow, I actually felt that!" moment than Danny actually dropping Luke.

Being invincible "as far as guns are concerned" takes a lot of things off the table so far as what can harm you.

edited 30th Oct '17 6:49:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76081: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:53:13 PM

I don't think Matt's punches or kicks could do much of anything to Luke. Just saying that if he had to escalate, I imagine that he's thought of all kinds of ways to hurt people that he's held off of because there's no way to pull them off nonlethally. Using the environment, in other words. This is a guy who— and I know I keep going back to this— dropped a fire extinguisher on someone from five storeys up, stabbed him in the head, and dropped him off a building, all the same guy, and this was someone he didn't intend to kill. So I think he'd rise to the occasion, is all.

edited 30th Oct '17 6:53:44 PM by Unsung

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76082: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:55:27 PM

I'm sure he'd try, but I'm just as sure that Luke isn't going to stand there politely and let Matt steadily experiment to try and find ways to harm him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76083: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:56:20 PM

Just noting that at the point in the series Tobias is at, the bit about The Hand not having infinite resurrections is a pretty major spoiler, given that itvforms the backbone of the villains' subplot in the middle of the season.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#76084: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:58:16 PM

I mean, I feel like "This will drain all of our resources" and all of the Hand people being bothered by death... it really shouldn't be that hard of an inference.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76085: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:58:37 PM

To give a spoiler-free explanation, I think the idea with the resurrections is that they're not infinite. Each treatment requires certain substances, and only gives you so many extra lives/extended lifespan before you need to go through the treatment again. That's why Alexandra's health is suddenly spiraling downward at a medically-unprecedented rate; her subscription to Immortality Quarterly has expired and she has no way to renew it, so her ancient body is crapping out on her.

Harold assumed he was perma-immortal after resurrecting for the second time, but you know what they say about assumptions. It makes an ass out of u and mptions.

Oh, and just in case you lost track, the Five Fingers are Alexandra of Europe, Madame Gao of K'un-Lun, Murakami of Japan (the dude who was carving the bear up), Sowande/White Hat of Africa (the dude who Luke was tailing for a while), and Bakuto of South America.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76086: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:59:43 PM

You're massively overrating Luke's invulnerability. As later episodes will demonstrate, sufficiently skilled martial artists can dent his amor.

You might be overestimating how much damage Matt can do to Luke. You basically either need to be as strong as him (and even Jess had some problems), or have the power of an iron fist (THE EON KID! THE EON KID!).

Also, Tobias, if you keep having this much raw hate towards Danny, you might actually use it all up.

And you can't do that. It's a precious precious resource that we can't afford to lose. You must properly conserve it.

Edit: Wow. I got Ninja'ed and hard.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:01:19 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76087: Oct 30th 2017 at 6:59:53 PM

[up][up]No, I got that. Stick literally explained that in this episode. And hilariously took Danny at his word that Bakuto's dead despite knowing that Danny's a thundering dumbass.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:00:21 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#76088: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:01:57 PM

Personally I'd prefer if he used up all of his Danny hate, because after 13 Iron Fist episodes and half of The Defenders, it's tedious at best.

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76089: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:04:36 PM

Yeah, I'd say we're at the point where that part of it is already spoiled, ie. established by resident Mr. Exposition, Stick.

Luke doesn't have to just stand there— Matt's certainly not going to. And between the two of them, even if Matt can't damage Luke directly, I think he could outmaneuver him, find something else that could, if not knock him out, at least pin him down. This calls for some street-level Spidey-vs-Rhino stuff, in other words.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:14:40 PM by Unsung

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76090: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:13:23 PM

This is true. He's not as dumb as Danny would be to just stand there wailing on him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76091: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:23:44 PM

Have you ever been shot? Bullets hit really hard.

Have you ever read a comic? Comics do weird, illogical shit really hard.

You can't throw a brick inside the Marvel universe without finding someone who's bullet-proof but vulnerable to magic punching.

Namely, there's the convenient excuse of pressure points.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:27:17 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76092: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:50:39 PM

I was wondering what would happen if the four Defenders got into a free-for-all for some reason. Assuming it's a fight until knockout, and there's no gimmicks or weapons in the arena, who would win almost entirely depends on the order of events.

Luke has the best shot at winning. Matt and Jessica simply cannot hurt him, and Danny only gets one chance to One Punch Man him. If the punch fails to knock Luke out, or Danny gets eliminated before he can use it, then Luke has won. He's destroyed the only kryptonite in the ring.

Danny faces a problem that even if he takes Luke out, he's now used his chi up and exhausted himself for the ensuing fight with Matt and Jessica. However, if those two were already eliminated beforehand by himself or Luke then he could potentially win.

Matt and Jessica's only real chance is letting Danny take out Luke and then eliminating Danny while he's still exhausted. If both Matt and Jessica are still standing after that Matt will probably win due to dodging Jessica's sloppy punches, but if he was already eliminated then Jessica should be able to take the win by knocking Danny out.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:52:52 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#76093: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:53:15 PM

I would argue that Jessica totally could beat Luke in a fight. It would be in Luke's favor, sure, but she's about as strong as he is and she's a lot agiler. One solid blow to his head in the right place could take Luke down for good.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:53:27 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76094: Oct 30th 2017 at 7:58:11 PM

Not likely. Jessica is at least as strong as Luke if not stronger in terms of offensive power, but his defenses are simply too strong for her to do much to him. When she fought him in her own show, she was only able to pull out a win by blasting him in the chin with a shotgun, all her direct attacks did little to nothing.

edited 30th Oct '17 7:58:53 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#76095: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:12:10 PM

Finding shit in the environment to use is still an option, unless they're fighting under No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination rules.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76096: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:16:29 PM

I was wondering what would happen if the four Defenders got into a free-for-all for some reason. Assuming it's a fight until knockout, and there's no gimmicks or weapons in the arena, who would win almost entirely depends on the order of events.

So yeah. No Items, Defenders Only, New York City.

edited 30th Oct '17 8:17:20 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76097: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:23:07 PM

...New York City is full of items. If it was just a featureless void, it wouldn't be New York City.

Knowing his environment (because super-senses) is as much a part of Daredevil's powerset as Batman's gadgets and stealth and advanced preparations, or Cap's ability to win via The Power of Friendship. I mean...yeah, no kidding they'd lose without those advantages, but they're not unfair advantages when the other guy is invulnerable or has superstrength and can fly.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76098: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:26:35 PM

Well Danny is Skilled, but Naive.

His brain is empty, and his an eternal dumb ass, but his skills as a martial artist are up there with Matt's (he might even be the better between the two).

Jessica is Unskilled, but Strong. Lots of brute strength, but absolutely no technique. She can power her way out of most anything, and if she hits you, you more than likely go down and stay down, but recall that even Simpson pre-Nuke was able to briefly get the drop on her, and it was only her superior strength that let her break free.

Luke is Willfully Weak. He's a trained boxer, as well as a former cop and marine. It'd be impossible for him to not know how to fight, but after getting his powers, he not only has little need for more complicated moves but holds back to avoid killing people

That just leaves Matt, who is Weak, but Skilled. Lacks the raw brute power that the other three can bring out in one way or another, but is as good a fighter as Danny, and his senses mean he's almost always a step ahead of everyone and aware of what's going on around him.

In a four way battle, it's hard to tell. Danny or Matt might be able to beat the other, but the latter and Jessica have nothing to deal with Luke (as pointed out, while he and Jess are nearly on par with each other, she can't get past his defences either).

Danny can put Luke down, but not permanently (as shown with their earlier encounter) unless he just gets luckier this time.

Matt and Danny can theoretically take out Jess, but similar to Luke, if she lands a good hit, they are both done.

Such a fight could really go in any direction, but I'd give it to Luke. If Danny wastes his one punch, then there's no way for any of them to take him out.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76099: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:28:51 PM

[up][up]'Twas just a joke on the Smash Bros meme.

Removing them from any interesting terrain or features and sticking them in a flat void of an arena does rob Daredevil of part of his powerset, but allowing for foreign interference makes it impossible to accurately gauge who would win. At that point, you may as well let any of them win by finding something like a loaded Judas gun or the Tesseract or a thermonuclear warhead or something.

[up]Regarding Danny vs. Luke, I think it's safe to assume the punch he landed on him in episode 2 was held back. A shotgun blast to the chin was enough to nearly kill Luke and render him comatose, but Danny has previously punched harder than a shotgun could ever dream of, blowing a steel door dozens of feet off its hinges and upheaving an entire office floor. But it seems like the power he puts into the punch fluctuates not just with his intentions but with his chi level and emotional state, so even if he tried to Chunky Salsa Rule Luke's skull it might not work. So it can really go either way.

edited 30th Oct '17 8:35:26 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#76100: Oct 30th 2017 at 8:32:28 PM

Sure, I appreciated the ref and mine was said in kind of a kidding way too grin I could Joking Mode it, but I didn't think it needed it. And yeah, the fact that anyone can win in a Let's You and Him Fight situation is what it always boils down to: it's not who's better, it's who needs to win for the sake of the plot, but what's still worth talking about is just how they'd pull it off.

edited 30th Oct '17 8:33:48 PM by Unsung


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