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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75976: Oct 28th 2017 at 8:02:46 AM

Eh, I wouldn't say that Danny's self-righteousness, aimlessness, and general idiocy is lazy writing. At this point, it is entirely consistent with his character. He's an idiot with an overinflated sense of self-importance and a flagrant disregard for the consequences of his actions that leads him to impulsively do things without so much as an end-game for what he hopes to get out of them.

Like marching into a boardroom full of magic ninjas just to tell them, "I'm onto you f*ckers!" That was stupid, but it was stupid in a way that is entirely consistent with the general sense of narcissistic short-sightedness that I've come to expect from Danny. He's not really trying to dismantle The Hand; he just likes getting high on the personal satisfaction he gets from punching them.

I equated him to Batman for this exact reason, but that might not be entirely fair to Batman. Danny's a vengeance junkie looking for his next hit.

edited 28th Oct '17 8:05:12 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75977: Oct 28th 2017 at 8:26:42 AM

[up] At this point Danny should know better than that, but this is exactly my reason for listing the stupidity of the OTHER characters, because they are not stuck with the "inexperienced" characterization and yet constantly drop the ball in the show.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75978: Oct 28th 2017 at 8:30:58 AM

[up]I don't agree, but can we put off the argument until later? The whole point of a liveblog is to get the watcher's gut reaction, and while you're not giving Tobias specifics, you're kinda colouring the experience of episodes still to come.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75979: Oct 28th 2017 at 9:43:30 AM

[up] I know, which is why I am holding my long rant in till the end.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#75980: Oct 28th 2017 at 10:10:38 AM

Luke's point (and subplot, at this point) is also colored by social analogy, much like his home series, which is where a lot of his point comes from: wide-scale criminal organization taking advantage of foolish and disenfranchised black kids trying to escape poverty by inducting them as small-timers, followed by heavy handed law enforcement (or vigilantism, in Danny's case) that takes it out on the aimless punks rather than make demonstrable strides against the organization itself. That's a situation that happens all the time to the expense of black communities, historically in some very devastating ways, and like a lot of things about him it immediately speaks to Luke's audience.

Luke's argument against Danny's "I"m fighting the Hand!" being "no, you're exerting your blame on whoever you can get away with, instead of doing what you should" is so War On Drugs it hurts.

Luke doesn't know the full situation so he's reacting to what he can see, which is what makes his take at this point so interesting.

edited 28th Oct '17 10:14:03 AM by KnownUnknown

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#75981: Oct 28th 2017 at 10:37:51 AM

You know I really didn't expect Luke's incredulity about the potential existence of a dragon to bug me as much as it did. But hearing it again in-context, my immediate reaction was "do you not realize what world you're living in? Come on man, unless you're an idiot, or been living under a rock for the last eight years or so, we're long past the point where a dragon existing is too hard to buy."

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75982: Oct 28th 2017 at 10:56:22 AM

[up]

Right now, the existence of magic isn't really a thing so I can't totally blame him for that.

Like marching into a boardroom full of magic ninjas just to tell them, "I'm onto you f*ckers!" That was stupid, but it was stupid in a way that is entirely consistent with the general sense of narcissistic short-sightedness that I've come to expect from Danny.

See, while I totally understand your ripping into Danny again (and agree with it) and hate the idea of defending him for anything, I have to point out that Danny likely assumed the guys he was talking to were just penny pushers: the public face of the hand who either didn't know the full nature of their company, were trapped in it like that one dude in season two of Daredevil, or were just in it for the cash and weren't aware of the more magical nature of their endeavours.

Danny had no way of knowing that every single person on the board of directors was a fucking ninja, because who's ever heard of a ninja board of directors.

...but fuck him anyway. He's a moron.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#75983: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:11:07 AM

Just because science experiments and aliens doesn't mean magic dragons.

You have to draw the line somewhere and I don't blame comic people for not realizing they're in a kind of kitchen sink setting. For the first couple times.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#75984: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:21:02 AM

Yeah, with comic books, more often than not, All Myths Are True, just because it expands the toy box considerably.

I have no complaints with this usually.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75985: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:31:10 AM

Remember, in the netflix verse no one acts like the avengers are real people half the time. I can totally buy Luke's unwillingness to embrace things like dragons.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#75986: Oct 28th 2017 at 11:42:40 AM

It's been half a decade and somehow, some goddamn way, Thor is still just called "The Dude with the Hammer" and The Hulk is "The Big Green Guy", despite the fact that he was named The Hulk, on National fucking Television, IN HIS OWN MOVIE.

My various fanfics.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#75987: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:12:33 PM

In fairness to Luke, there are only two out-and-out magical groups in The Verse right now, and both of them have been a complete secret until now.

edited 28th Oct '17 12:16:41 PM by KnownUnknown

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#75988: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:56:27 PM

Dragons don't have to be inherently magical, though. Heck, those giant flying Leviathans the Chitauri brought with them are already pretty darn close to being dragons.

Then, of course, there's London being invaded by elves.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#75989: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:07:30 PM

There's also freaking aliens. Who's to say that the dragon isn't from another planet. The point is, I wish that they'd just stop having characters say nonsense like that. With how long the MCU has gone on for, it's gotten really stupid imo.

"Aliens, giant flying metal snakes, dark elves, super-advanced killer robots, glowing fire people, etc all exist, but that doesn't mean that he'd believe in a dragon." Umm sorry, I just cannot agree with that. It WOULD make him more likely to believe. Because those are all FAR weirder than a freaking dragon.

As for magic, Thor is an established presence in this universe, and he has a magic hammer that conjures lighting out of it.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75990: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:09:36 PM

The thing is, the giant alien dragons are from another world far away. It IS a bit understandable to be skeptical that a dragon could exist on EARTH, since you'd think we'd have heard about them by now.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75991: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:14:22 PM

And, to be fair, we do get a really good explanation as to why there aren't dragons everywhere: they're almost extinct.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75992: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:25:44 PM

Aliens are far easier to believe in than dragons due to the simple fact that we haven't satellite-mapped every corner of, say, the Andromeda galaxy. There could easily be incredible things in space that we've never heard of.

Hong Kong's more of a stretch.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#75993: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:28:04 PM

I'd buy it if it came from the ocean, like Godzilla

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75994: Oct 28th 2017 at 2:50:16 PM

Well, I am pretty sure that the people in the MCU don't really believe in Santa Claus either, and I don't blame them for it. A dragon on earth is pretty far out. As is the notion that someone punched it and got a magical fist as a reward (which is actually the point where I would call fool). And remember, we learned in Iron Fist that there are at least some people who have started to tell themselves that they have special powers without being special at all, so a healthy dose of scepticism might not be the worst idea.

The board room scene angers me three reasons:

1. I don't really see what Danny's plan there is. Yes, he can't know that there is a ninja board, but that isn't even the issue here. There is no purpose whatsoever in walking into this board room other than warning the Hand that he has found them there. And yes, Danny is impulsive, but he is not THAT stupid, he has shown to be stealthy in the first season. He didn't just walk up to the people who moved the Russian, but watched them at the harbour until he saw an opportunity to look into their transporter. And he didn't just walk into the cellar in the compound but waited until the night to sneak in.

2. On the flip side, this is such a missing opportunity. They should have shown the hand as competent for once and make the whole thing their plan to lure Danny in. Ie by letting him believe that he has a chance to get an idea what the Hand is up to but in reality it is just an elaborate trap. Instead he just happens to march into the room just as they decide "well, it is now REALLY time to get our hands on them". How convenient. (and it would be even better if in turn Danny had thought ahead and taken Luke as back-up instead of creating this stupid scenario in which all Defenders just happen to turn up at the same place at the same time).

3. It just irks me that the writers didn't even try to come up with some sort of believable storyline to get the scene they wanted. They just put the characters they needed there with the flimsiest of excuses...they put a moment in but didn't bother to built the moment properly up. And the most aggravating thing is that they had the perfect excuse to actually get this scene without all that nonsense. I mean, there is a giant earthquake with questionable origin. It would be logical that all the defenders decide independent from each other to investigate it and end up at the epicentre around the same time. Matt could have watched the building for days because he knows exactly where the Hand headquarter is. Jessica could have ended up there following the information she got from Trish. And as I said, Danny and Luke could have teamed up earlier.

The whole thing just frustrates me. The first episodes are unnecessarily convoluted and too simplistic at the same time.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75995: Oct 28th 2017 at 3:53:08 PM

Cool. If we are saying Danny is a moron, I'm satisfied.

Man, I never want to defend him again.

Colleen for New Iron Fist!

One Strip! One Strip!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#75996: Oct 28th 2017 at 5:01:31 PM

Aliens are far easier to believe in than dragons due to the simple fact that we haven't satellite-mapped every corner of, say, the Andromeda galaxy. There could easily be incredible things in space that we've never heard of.

And some of those things in space that we've never heard of could be giant lizard-like creatures that, on Earth, would be identified as dragons.

I mean, it's established fact in the MCU that the gods and monsters of Norse Mythology actually exist and can visit Earth from other worlds, and guess what? Norse Mythology includes quite a few dragons.

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#75997: Oct 28th 2017 at 8:50:52 PM

You're talking about Nidhogg, aren't you?

[DATA LOST]
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75998: Oct 28th 2017 at 8:55:24 PM

Or Fafnir. Or, by some definitions, Jormungandr.

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#75999: Oct 28th 2017 at 9:01:12 PM

Well, having come back from watching the movie, I won't say whether it was in the movie or not. Unfortunately, I am having a bit of a problem with the way the secret bit went. Having already seen the leaked trailer for Infinity War, I can see that trailer will be needing some adjustments to better fit what I saw.

[DATA LOST]
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76000: Oct 28th 2017 at 9:06:17 PM

It'd be amusing if some groups on the MCU's Earth assume that the Chitauri and the Leviathan are Asgardians in nation because they showed up with Loki.

I mean, it's established fact in the MCU that the gods and monsters of Norse Mythology actually exist and can visit Earth from other worlds, and guess what? Norse Mythology includes quite a few dragons.

Nobody on Earth has seen any of Asgard's mythological creatures yet. So far, all anyone knows of Asgard besides people close to Thor (who heard stories, at most) are one supertough guy who can fly, and another space dictator with a bunch of aliens at his disposal.

And as Tony demonstrates in Ultron, with his "it's probably a fingerprint scanner, not a spell" spiel, there appears to be some inclination among people to assume that Thor's magic is bullshit. It isn't helped by the fact that the Thor series in general does a lot of Doing In the Wizard in regards to how Asgard is presented.

More to the point, the Leviathan and the aliens are a very different concept from what Danny is trying to sell Luke, and that's one of the few things that Luke would be able to differentiate there. The Chitauri were an invasion from space, whereas Danny is talking about a mystical order of magic users whose pet dragon gave him chi powers - it's a different kind of story, and the suspension of disbelief would be different for both.

edited 28th Oct '17 9:17:00 PM by KnownUnknown


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