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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75951: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:33:25 PM

Or y'all can watch Inhumans and share in me hating the Royal Family.

Honestly I'd really wanna see Tobias liveblog Inhumans once that show finishes up.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75952: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:37:24 PM

Not even bothering with Inhumans to be honest. It's the only marvel show that I can watch that I'm not bothering to watch, at least right now.

Though both my brothers seem to like it. So either the hate is exaggerated, or their lack of knowledge of the Inhumans (and lack of knowledge of Permulter's insanity) means they don't go in with any strange biases.

One Strip! One Strip!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75953: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:42:05 PM

If not really enjoying the pro-slavery Royal Family wandering around Earth while not really using their powers or trying very hard to get back to the kingdom that overthrew them while still being portrayed as the heroes is a strange bias, I guess so.

edited 27th Oct '17 8:27:44 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75954: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:43:29 PM

Inhumans is a show that deserves all the hate it gets. It's the only thing Marvel has ever made that is definitively worse than Iron Fist.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#75955: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:49:50 PM

On the other hand it is a heartbreaking documentary on Anson Mount's doomed mission to become a great Black Bolt in the worst possible show with Black Bolt in it.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75956: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:52:18 PM

I consider it a series made for Scott Buck to brag about how much he likes white privilege where the villain is repeatedly mocked for having the "wrong" power after terrigenesis (no power whatsoever) and who stages a coup to take over a kingdom built on slavery and segregation and yet he's treated like he's a horrible person for that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#75957: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:53:39 PM

A lot of that is source material

Weird for them to adapt it straight up though

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75958: Oct 27th 2017 at 7:54:39 PM

[up][up][up]He does sell it. I kinda wish he could've shown up in a scene with Stark and Dr Strange. Failing that, I almost hope Agents of SHIELD manages to rope him in, though maybe that'd be a hard sell given that AOS has that whole severe anti-tyranny slant.

edited 27th Oct '17 8:35:05 PM by Unsung

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#75959: Oct 27th 2017 at 8:19:28 PM

[up][up]I think the end goal was to have the Inhumans eventually start to learn a lesson. But that kind of hinges on them being likable enough for the audience to invest in such a journey, and I don't think that's the case.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75960: Oct 27th 2017 at 8:26:09 PM

It's not. At all. I think it says a lot when the character who's supposed to be the nicest one in the comics, Crystal, is portrayed as an absolutely disgusting bigot and a huge brat.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75961: Oct 27th 2017 at 8:32:04 PM

I just realized something.

Colleen is the one who tells Luke about The Hand being able to resurrect people. Which means she and Danny do know that this is a thing, despite their confusion over Bakuto's disappearance.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75962: Oct 27th 2017 at 8:32:25 PM

[up][up]Comics!Crystal always represented the best of the Inhumans. Not that she didn't have her problems, but she was overall a nice and caring young woman who wanted the best for everyone. Hell, she was even an Avenger for a while. So to see Crystal become... this is just disheartening.

edited 27th Oct '17 8:32:36 PM by kkhohoho

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75963: Oct 27th 2017 at 8:33:58 PM

Well yeah. Meachum senior remember.

They do in fact know it's a thing. But it's still plain ass freaky when someone who you knew had died shows up being all like s'up?

There's a disconnect between knowing and seeing. But the important thing is Danny is an idiot.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75964: Oct 27th 2017 at 9:59:48 PM

Trust me, Tobias, Defenders KNOWS that Danny is an idiot and a problematic character, and it tries its hardest to salvage him by having literally every other character in the show call him out on it. Don't write him off yet, he has some development to go.

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#75965: Oct 27th 2017 at 10:34:57 PM

Okay, so there's gonna be an early screening of Thor: Ragnarok playing near where I'm currently staying at tomorrow afternoon, but I won't say anything until well after the movie opens everywhere else. I'll only give an opinion on whether you guys should see it and if any hints of Infinity War or other movies crop up.

edited 27th Oct '17 10:36:25 PM by VoidsEmpathy

[DATA LOST]
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75966: Oct 27th 2017 at 11:07:53 PM

I get what they were aiming for with the scene of Luke calling Danny out, but Luke's argument about having the power to go to the top yet taking war to the bottom feels kinda hypocritical coming from the guy who spent most of his season dithering around beating on bottom-rung mooks (who literally pose no threat to him, no less) instead of just invincibly walking up to Cottonmouth and popping his head off.

edited 28th Oct '17 12:51:49 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75967: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:17:18 AM

The main problem is the situation over which Luke complains to Danny. I mean, Danny wasn't fighting some random kid, he was fighting a guy in a hand mask who was just doing his part in getting rid of a bunch of bodies. That is hardly a small thing, that is helping with murder! And how the hell is Danny supposed to know that this black clad guy who works for the hand isn't an actual hand soldier but some street kid being into it for some money?

Also the whole argument that the kid just wants to help his family is BS too, because we already know that he used the money to buy expensive shoes and be the big guy on his block. We only learn later that he also put some money aside, but we don't even know if it was meant for his mother or if he just hid it in her home.

And then there is the whole "I am one of them" part of the speech....well, comic book Luke Cage is, but Netflix Luke Cage isn't. He didn't grow up in the neighbourhood, he is the son of a preacher from elsewhere and therefore grew up well-off and under very different circumstances. Just because his skin is black, it doesn't mean that he also has an understanding for how it is to grew up with gang violence and in poverty.

But even if Luke Cage truly were one of them in every sense of the word, that STILL doesn't give him the right to hit whoever annoys him. Danny at least only fights people who are specifically associated with the Hand, Luke fights whoever he perceives as criminal (unless he has promised someone to protect said criminal).

So, yeah, the whole speech is BS....I get the point behind it, that Danny is privileged and therefore sometimes detached from the world. And yes, he certainly can use his power to fight against the Hand if he is smart about it. But the issue on which the whole argument was built makes Luke a giant hypocrite from the get go.

About Danny in the Defenders in general: The show is odd in that Danny is actually right in his arguments most of the time, but the show writers constantly decides to let him do stuff which is just incredible stupid just to keep the plot going....it's lazy writing all around. (The show also suffers from the worst directing of all the defender shows, especially in the next episode).

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75968: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:43:51 AM

I question the logic train that led you to conclude that the son of a preacher must have been well-off.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75969: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:46:44 AM

[up][up][up]Luke hardly ever beats up anyone who isn't already *shooting* at him or someone else. He'll stop a fight, and he'll definitely finish a fight, but he doesn't go looking for them, and that's key. Luke mostly takes away their guns and says boo, and because of his reputation, that works. If they still keep coming after that, he might knock them out. But his big fight at Crispus Attucks is all about getting that money away from Cottonmouth's operation, and as soon as he's got it, he leaves, because going around punching bad guys only goes so far, and you need to be sure the guys you're punching actually are in fact the bad guys, and the right bad guys at that.

Killing Cottonmouth doesn't solve the problem. Great as the character was, he's great because he's such a weak villain, just a symptom, not a cause, and all too easily replaced, as we see— first by Diamondback and then by Sowande in The Defenders.

[up][up]Being black in America is still a way bigger point of solidarity than being from Georgia would ever be a mark against his cred. And the kid bought himself some shoes, sure, but he also paid his mother's rent. These issues don't make the whole speech BS, or change the fact that Danny was about to kick the crap out of a kid who really wasn't in that deep, making it barely a step removed from beating up a janitor because he worked at one of Wilson Fisk's buildings. There are degrees of culpability, and while Cole's guilty of something, painting him with the same brush as, say, Shameek, Dante, or Chico, doesn't really show a lot of empathy. That's the point that's being made— you can't go assuming everyone even remotely connected with the Hand is equally guilty, and Danny's about to beat up a kid who can't even give him the information he needs because he really doesn't know anything.

It's supposed to be a mutual misunderstanding, and Luke's not completely right about Danny (or he's not supposed to be, the writing on Iron Fist makes the whole thing kind of a joke) but either Danny is immature and has a lot to learn, in which case this kind of mistake is forgivable, or he's responsible for his mistakes and simply refusing to acknowledge them. He is, in that sense, like Cole.

And the next episode is one of my favourites, though I can see how it'd be divisive. I don't agree that The Defenders was badly directed at all.

edited 28th Oct '17 9:27:26 AM by Unsung

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75970: Oct 28th 2017 at 12:48:59 AM

Yeah, being the son of a preacher wouldn't make him well off. Plus he lived in Georgia. You know, one of the southern states.

[up]I interpreted it as a mutual misunderstanding where both sides have a good point but are not fully informed, and while I feel it's a little clunky (like the aforementioned hypocrisy) I think it's a good bit of development for both characters; Danny actually heeds Luke's advice and tries to make better use of his power, while Luke is made to confront the idea that maybe this really is something more supernatural than a run-of-the-mill street gang.

edited 28th Oct '17 1:11:14 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75971: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:08:41 AM

Well, his father was apparently influential enough to keep him out of trouble in a situation in which a "normal" black guy would have ended up in prison.

Anyway, the problem is that while Luke might be right in a large sense (he is misjudging Danny, though), he is wrong about the specific situation. Again, guy who helps to cover up a murder in hand gear has lost the right to be treated like innocent and harmless bystander. Plus, Danny was hardly beating him to dead, he stopped him from fleeing and tried to get information from him, something Luke does all the time. In fact, he does it in this very episode to Turk.

edited 28th Oct '17 1:09:08 AM by Swanpride

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75972: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:12:05 AM

Oh yeah, and about the Black Sky (minor spoilers for Defenders, Tobias, I think you can probably look at these without missing out on much): they never do explain what it is that's so special, but the implication is that it's basically just an Evil Counterpart to the Iron Fist.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75973: Oct 28th 2017 at 1:19:24 AM

But we've been hearing about the Black Sky since DD season 1, and I still suspect the original intent was not for the Hand and the exiles of K'un-Lun ie. Madame Gao to be one and the same. Besides, the Iron Fist already has a canonical equivalent in the form of the Steel Serpent, aka Davos. The damage is done, but I still think they could've done a better job repairing it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75974: Oct 28th 2017 at 6:06:13 AM

The biggest problem with any claim to rightness that Danny has is that he's still only doing this for emotional validation; he has no plan, no actual goal, nothing even resembling an idea that could reasonably thwart The Hand. There are two conflicting fundamentals about Danny's approach to combatting The Hand:

  • Danny believes that every member of the organization, every single one, needs to be punched without exception. He intends to use violence indiscriminately to destroy the organization, not as a tool towards reaching another goal but as the plan in and of itself.
  • Danny refuses to kill anyone.

Danny's first, last, and only resort is to walk in the door and start lobbing punches at ninjas, but they're non-lethal punches meant to subdue. And then he leaves. Presumably, a couple hours later, the ninjas wake up and go, "God, what a dick!" and then get back to work.

That is the entire extent of Danny's plan: annoying The Hand into submission by occasionally punching out their membership. Superheroes get away with having a Thou Shalt Not Kill code because the subduing violence is only part of a bigger solution. When Spider-Man subdues Doc Ock, he then takes him to the police so that he can be arrested and put in jail. He doesn't punch out Doc Ock and then go home and have tea.

Danny has no follow-up. He's apparently been "hunting" The Hand for months but we've been given no indication that he's reversed his position on killing people so those months have been spent buzzing around The Hand's operations like a particularly annoying wasp. Painful, distracting, but not altogether a threat.

I criticized Luke for the same thing but credit where it's due, Luke actually used his violence in service of a goal. When he started throwing punches, it was to accomplish something. Danny's just doing it to feel emotionally validated, so that he can go home and tell himself he stuck it to The Hand today even though he didn't actually accomplish anything of merit. Danny's the equivalent of someone who signs a petition to save the rainforest and then convinces themselves that they saved the planet.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75975: Oct 28th 2017 at 7:50:39 AM

[up] You will discover that The Defenders is full of lazy and BS writing, not just regarding Danny. Don't expect anything close to an actual workable plan from anyone except Jessica. She is pretty much the only one not acting stupid for the sake of the plot in the show. Cease to point, by now we have Daredevil acting like Daredevil in street clothes for no apparent reason just so that Jessica can witness it and Luke laying into Danny instead of trying to get more information from him and formulating a plan. And don't get me started on the hand itself.


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