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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75701: Oct 20th 2017 at 12:07:38 AM

I guess it can work if gravity still functions through the portal, which seems to be the case since Iron Man "falls" back down through the portal instead of just staying adrift. But I feel like that'd just cause even more problems.

edited 20th Oct '17 12:08:11 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75702: Oct 20th 2017 at 12:09:12 AM

Well, in the sense that 'down' means toward the largest physical mass, yeah?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75703: Oct 20th 2017 at 12:17:38 AM

Yes, of course.

He flew up through the portal so I just called the reverse "falling down" through it, even though "up" and "down" don't really exist in outer space. It was admittedly ambiguous though.

edited 20th Oct '17 12:18:42 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75704: Oct 20th 2017 at 1:22:49 AM

I have two big issues with Killian.

One: They made it way too obvious that he is the one pulling strings in the background. It is in a way worse than what they did with Stane, who had the same problem, because in this case the movie is actively trying to fool the audience while drawing a giant "here is the true villain" over Killian. I kept hoping for a double twist, that Maya is the one who used Killian and not the other way around, but nope, it's the guy they presented as obviously evil from the get go.

Two: I have no idea what his actual end goal is. I mean, I get his plan (aside from him actually attacking Tony, I am not sure why he allowed Tony to goat him), but I don't really understand why he feels the need to replace the president. What is the vice president supposed to give him exactly? Is it just about having more power?

The movie in general actually mostly works fine until the last ten minutes or so. It feels like the movie just got boring of its own story and then throws in a quick narrative to hastily wrap up what was set up to this point. Pepper's Extremis? Yeah, no problem, Tony can just take care of it. And let's remove the arc reactor while we are on it, thus turning movie 2 in a giant plot hole and just negating one of the consequences within the MCU.

For me Ironman 3 is somewhere in the bottom four of the MCU and those last ten minutes are the main reason for it. Had it wrapped up better, it would be a good middle-tier movie.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#75705: Oct 20th 2017 at 1:50:14 AM

What is the vice president supposed to give him exactly? Is it just about having more power?

Extremis couldn’t be adequately tested or sold in its current state where there’s a 10% chance the user might explode. Killian wanted more funding to fix the glitches, but the President wouldn’t approve a grant to something so dangerous it convincingly passed for terrorist attacks. But the Vice President, with a motive to cure his disabled daughter, would approve more funding regardless of the risk.

edited 20th Oct '17 7:51:48 AM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75706: Oct 20th 2017 at 2:33:23 AM

That is another thing...why doesn't Killian explode?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#75707: Oct 20th 2017 at 7:54:19 AM

*shrug* Then there’d be no movie. tongue

edited 20th Oct '17 7:54:30 AM by Tuckerscreator

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75708: Oct 20th 2017 at 7:59:06 AM

Stane is supposed to be obvious. He's the Big Bad Friend, and with Tony out of the way he gets the whole company to himself. Plus anyone who's ever picked up the comics would know he was a bad guy the instant they said his name out loud, so there was no point milking the reveal. Obie gets points for playing the part well enough that I could believe that *Tony* trusted him, but the audience is never really supposed to.

edited 20th Oct '17 7:59:16 AM by Unsung

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75709: Oct 20th 2017 at 8:07:27 AM

[up][up]No, there'd be a movie. It'd be a very boring movie, but it'd be a movie.tongue

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75710: Oct 20th 2017 at 8:11:54 AM

(aside from him actually attacking Tony, I am not sure why he allowed Tony to goat him)

This is one of the reasons why I wish they'd cut the personal connection between Tony and Killian entirely. Killian doesn't need a petty grudge to justify trying to take down the man who "successfully privatized world peace" and just called the Mandarin out as a pathetic coward on national television.

That moment is motivation enough. The moment when the Mandarin garners the attention of a goddamn Avenger is a bad moment for Killian. Not only did Tony just pit Iron Man's rep against the Mandarin's in the arena of public opinion - jeopardizing the illusion that Killian's spent so much time setting up - but the fact alone that Tony intends to investigate the crime scenes that the Mandarin exists to discourage investigation of is a serious threat to his operation.

Again equating him to Toomes, the day that Spider-Man shoves his nose in his business is a very bad day for Toomes and marks the beginning of the end. Having Stark in your affairs is worse, because he has the brilliance and the resources needed to uncover and dismantle Killian's operation piece by piece.

If you're running a criminal conspiracy that depends on people being afraid of your scapegoat, Tony Stark is the most dangerous man on Earth. And he just insulted your scapegoat's dick size on live television.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#75711: Oct 20th 2017 at 9:42:30 AM

Honestly when Shane Black said that someone high up in Marvel coughIkePerlmuttercough forced him to change his original plan for IM 3 (namely he originally intended to have a female main villain), it made a lot of things make more sense for me.

Because logically, Maya Hansen should have been the mastermind and initially the movie seemed to be setting that up. First of all, she ends up being the mastermind in the Extremis arc that the movie is (loosely) based on. Second, SHE was the one who was working on the early version of Extremis, SHE was the one who showed it to Tony (and it's "it tends to make things blow up" flaw as well), SHE was the one who had mostly altruistic motives for working on it, and she had more of a connection to Tony than Killian did.

It felt like that opening scene set her up to be FAR more important, and then Killian basically hijacks the narrative later on and is far more obvious and far less interesting and all of her motivations are discarded in favor of the "women scorned" cliché that made no sense in-context.. Also they set her up to have some more character stuff, and then it just, end out of nowhere.

Plus it just would have been more interesting. Far fewer people would have suspected her of being the actual big bad than Mr. "I'm obvious and evil a-hole the second that I appear onscreen in the present" Aldrich Killian. And you could have done a nice parallel between her and Tony in a way that there simply isn't with Killian. Also she had better built in motivations.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75712: Oct 20th 2017 at 10:00:19 AM

Hence why I said even Maya would have been better

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#75713: Oct 20th 2017 at 10:38:37 AM

And a major problem with Iron Man 3 (and the character of Tony in general) is that if he wasn't going through a personal crisis then the conflict of the film would have been over much quicker. The gunship attack on his home would have been resolved in seconds without a sweat because he would have a competent armor ready to defend himself. To have a character overcome their character flaws in the face of danger is heroic, but to have a character cleaning up problems they personally instigated is more of a common courtesy. The film blends the two and suffers for it. Killians' claim that he didn't care about revenge doesn't really hold up, as he seemed very confident in Extremis' power, the Mandarin deflected attention away from him and the timetable was in place that Tony would have a hard time figuring out the clues before everything fell into place (and benefited from people believing he was dead), so he didn't even need to bother attacking him.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#75714: Oct 20th 2017 at 10:59:27 AM

Also: fuck that kid.

My various fanfics.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#75715: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:08:56 AM

If you ask me, I like Iron man 3 a lot, in part because it really answer the question Cap did to Tony "without a suit, what do you are?" and it show, is intersting to see Tony outsmart their enemies over and over and while Killian is bland and boring, he DID push tony to is limit which is waaaaay more than the typical marvel villian who is just...there.

(Not surprising, Hydra does the same thing to Cap in Winter soldier).

If there is a movie that is stupier than Dark world, that would be Iron man 2, the worst MCU so far.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#75716: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:14:51 AM

[up][up] I actually found Harley one of the more tolerable things about the film.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#75717: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:15:44 AM

I liked the kid

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#75718: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:16:03 AM

I like the kid too.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75719: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:23:26 AM

Seemed like an average kid. I didn't really have a strong reaction to him, but I certainly didn't mind him. He kind of fades into the background as RDJ talks over him, which I suppose was the idea.

That Tony is basically a grown-up Kevin McCallister seems about right.

@KJ Tony Stark is going through a personal crisis in every movie. He takes everything personally and can never delegate or trust anyone else. It's his fatal flaw.

edited 20th Oct '17 11:28:56 AM by Unsung

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#75720: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:24:55 AM

The “we’re connected” scene was gold, but it should’ve been Harley’s last scene.

(It’s even funnier knowing that RDJ was almost in Oz the Great where China Girl pulls the same trick as Harley.)

edited 20th Oct '17 11:25:19 AM by Tuckerscreator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#75721: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:30:15 AM

I liked Harley too - he was fun, and his part of the movie was fun.

The thing that bugged me was how obvious it was that he was a throw-in character. He's acted very well and plays off of RDJ well, and that saves Harley from being an otherwise annoying insert.

edited 20th Oct '17 11:30:33 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75722: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:34:21 AM

I didn't mind the kid because the kid actor did a good job (most don't) and they side-stepped a number of clichés (though it would have naturally better if there hadn't been a targeted demographic in the movie in the first place). And I admit, since the kid is already set up as some sort of tinkering genius, I wouldn't mind to see an adult version of him down the line.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#75723: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:38:24 AM

Honestly I never bought that Killian really "challenged" Tony to any real degree. Maybe it was the film's overall inconsistent tone, but whenever they played up the "Tony is backed into his lowest point," I kept going "no, not really. He doesn't act like he is and the scenarios aren't nearly as desperate as you're trying to make them seem."

Also the more that I think about it, the whole "does the suit make the man or the man make the suit" was just a half-baked idea as well. For one simple reason, by that point in the MCU timeline, the answer was already obvious. You're "raising a question" that's already been answered repeatedly.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#75724: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:43:52 AM

Yeah, Steve even asking that question was stupid in and of itself because he doesn't know jack about Tony. And really, Steve's got some stones implying Tony is nothing without his armor when Steve's yet to show that he's worth a damn without his serum.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75725: Oct 20th 2017 at 11:43:53 AM

It's just an excuse for Tony to have to Mac Gyver his way through a situation because that's what Shane Black and RDJ were more interested in doing at the time. RDJ likes playing the underdog and that's increasingly hard to justify with Iron Man. Having him need to go back to basics was an idea I can appreciate in theory, but ends up feeling slightly jarring when we transition back into the backburnered Extremis plot.

[up]It's more a question of character than about who would win in a fight. Might does not make right, is the idea— yes, Tony wields a lot of power through his inventions and wealth, and that's impressive, but has he matured enough to use it responsibly? Without the serum, Steve would still fight to do the right thing. He'd lose, but he'd still fight. Would Tony? That's the question being asked, and it gets under Tony's skin, because he knows what he was like before he built up all this power and goodwill, and he's afraid that he hasn't actually changed all that much, and for all his natural ability he's still going to fall apart and bring everyone else down with him.

edited 20th Oct '17 11:07:30 PM by Unsung


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